I just called doctor Mellingers office, Im making an appointment, its in LI but 40 miles of traveling for a learned doctor is well worth it.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
We have seen guys who can’t absorb T-gel and there docs keep increasing the dose and just don’t get the concept.[/quote]
Is it as simple as if you cant absorb it thats it? Or is it possible or have you seen people absorb the gel on higher dosage?[/quote]
Some simply will not absorb and more gel does not work. [Many of these have hypothyroidism.]
[quote]christopher36 wrote:
I tried Test E 100mg. a week. A 50mg. shot twice weekly. I was using this along with HCG 250iu twice weekly. No AI and my Estradiol went to 44 Quest. Still in range.
But my mood swings were no bargain. It just didn’t work for me. Everyones different. HCG always affected me really bad, to the point of severe panic attacks and not being able to get out of bed. The shots just made me very angry all the time.
My Doctor is Dr. Mellinger. I spoke to him about all this and he suggested gels first and now Testo-pain. I like the energy and smooth mood with the pellets right now. Just the soreness is really bad. He says shrinkage is very minimal with low dose test therapy. I have filled back out since starting Testopel. So my very low test from the gels was causing me some shrinkage problems. This guy has been treating many men with TRT for years. He does many testopel treatments everyday and his patients prefer it.
I’m just waiting for this soreness to subside, time to go ice my ass. Later guys. [/quote]
It does not take much T to shutdown the HPTA. Zero LH is zero LH. Doc’s comment wrong. And what is “low test therapy”. That has never been seen before as an objective. The only way that shrinkage will not occur is when LH is significant; which is really unexpected,
Doc makes a shit load of $$$ with pellets. He could write scripts for injectables and really reduce his income. But that would not affect his judgment about what is right for you. His patients prefer it VS what? Sounds like a little white deception.
Your mood/anger problems were from the untreated E2=44, not the injections.
There is no reason to expect that pellets will produce less E2 than frequent injections. When the serum T levels are the same, there will be the same amount of T–>E2 aromatization.
Please update this on the T pellets thread later on or in your own thread.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
LOL, thanks Chris, is this the same Dr. Mellinger in Long Island?[/quote]
Yes the same Doctor. Good luck.
[quote]KSman wrote:
[quote]christopher36 wrote:
I tried Test E 100mg. a week. A 50mg. shot twice weekly. I was using this along with HCG 250iu twice weekly. No AI and my Estradiol went to 44 Quest. Still in range.
But my mood swings were no bargain. It just didn’t work for me. Everyones different. HCG always affected me really bad, to the point of severe panic attacks and not being able to get out of bed. The shots just made me very angry all the time.
My Doctor is Dr. Mellinger. I spoke to him about all this and he suggested gels first and now Testo-pain. I like the energy and smooth mood with the pellets right now. Just the soreness is really bad. He says shrinkage is very minimal with low dose test therapy. I have filled back out since starting Testopel. So my very low test from the gels was causing me some shrinkage problems. This guy has been treating many men with TRT for years. He does many testopel treatments everyday and his patients prefer it.
I’m just waiting for this soreness to subside, time to go ice my ass. Later guys. [/quote]
It does not take much T to shutdown the HPTA. Zero LH is zero LH. Doc’s comment wrong. And what is “low test therapy”. That has never been seen before as an objective. The only way that shrinkage will not occur is when LH is significant; which is really unexpected,
Doc makes a shit load of $$$ with pellets. He could write scripts for injectables and really reduce his income. But that would not affect his judgment about what is right for you. His patients prefer it VS what? Sounds like a little white deception.
Your mood/anger problems were from the untreated E2=44, not the injections.
There is no reason to expect that pellets will produce less E2 than frequent injections. When the serum T levels are the same, there will be the same amount of T–>E2 aromatization.
Please update this on the T pellets thread later on or in your own thread.
[/quote]
Uh, Dr. Mellinger is NOT deceptive!
Also, is there something wrong with increasing one’s income because of their competence and ability to utilize new techniques in their chosen profession WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GIVING QUALITY CARE?
I myself don’t understand what Chris refers to as “low test therapy”. There are standard dosages and that’s it really. Perhaps Chris just didn’t phrase what he was trying to express properly.
I don’t know what my doc’s take on injections in detail. I just never had to bother with any other form of TRT aside from Androgel and the short stints on clomid as I have explained before. This guy, and others of his caliber in urology and andrology have spent and sacrificed much of their time to learn their chosen profession and have worked damn hard at it too. So in all fairness and politeness, I find it RUDE when you dismiss them as shysters who just want to make a buck!
Take a look at this guy’s CV that I’ve shown here several times for other members (some of whom have seen him and got the proper help) and tell me he is a “trained monkey” (the term you once used when I advised those in need to see a urologist with a fellowship in andrology). http://www.impotencespecialists.com/dbfls/cvs/mellinger.htm You said something along the lines of “No one needs to see andrologists; there are plenty of trained monkeys out there.” I guess they’re trained-enough monkeys to perform urological surgeries on people too.
He’s now teaching at Stony Brook University as adjunct professor and has over 40 peer reviewed studies, most of which can be found on Pub Med. The guy’s (along with the others I mentioned several times) mean business and are dedicated to their trades and some have been practicing for DECADES. One of them became CEO of Beth Israel Hospital, a major, MAJOR medical center in NYC. Do trained monkeys get to that position? Or people who don’t know what they’re doing in healthcare?
The track record of what guys report for injected pellets on this forum suggests that the results are poor and guys stating ‘never again’ speaks for itself. I don’t care what training that doc has. Training does not make one immune from greed. All I want to see is the the best treatment for the patient and best result. “New techniques” are not necessarily better and never cheaper. Increasing their income should not be a prime motive.
This: “He does many testopel treatments everyday and his patients prefer it.” is an alarming statement. I suggest that the patients do not know better, or the doc is saying, in a misleading fashion, that his patients prefer it to no treatment at all. If they do prefer pellets to other forms of TRT, he needs data that indicates that he switched guys from injections to pellets and they prefer that, as an example. If the guys on injections were getting injected every week or two weeks, I do not except that as a baseline for comparison. Just as the T-gel companies say that gels produce better results than injections, when the data for injections were for injections every two weeks.
T levels from pellets peak and fall over the months. This makes AI dosing control impossible.
What is the point of pellets when many should have the option of injecting hCG. And if injecting hCG, what is the point of not injecting T? If one is able to inject hCG, thus able to inject T, why spend money for a very costly T delivery system when injected T can provide steady levels and very low costs.
My objections to what appears to be reported should not be countered with how great this doc is. You have not refuted my technical points that I made.
Did this guy misunderstand what the doc told him? Perhaps, but that also speaks to the skill of the doc who needs to state things clearly. How do you explain the concept of pellets not causing HPTA shutdown?
Meanwhile Chris is in a lot of pain.
The guy DOES give people the option of gels or pellets and DOES give HCG, clomid, and AI’s as needed, depending on one’s situation.
Perhaps Chris is not offering information he should here.
I see the guy; I don’t take Testopel. He offered it in my last visit. I said, “No, thanks. I’ll stick with the gel, what has worked for a long time.” His response: “OK, sure. I’ll see you out in front with your prescription.”
And when I saw the guy eight years ago (before Testopel), he gave me three options–HCG, clomid, or Androgel–explained each one, and asked which I preferred. That’s not letting a patient decide on something or leaving information out in order to make a buck.
The Doctor stated with TRT therapy the dose is low meaning enough to replace your natural levels. He explained that he has seen very little testicle shrinkage and even had a bag of balls in his pocket to prove it. He checks my Estradiol and explained if my nipples started itching or my levels were too high we would treat them. I keep them low naturally and so far good.
What information am I not offering Brick?? If I offer anymore I’ll need to leave my address and phone too.
Dr. Mel gave me the option of pellets, gels or shots. After months on Testim now we went to pellets. It’s been 7 days now and I still can’t sit. Can’t lay on my left side at all and my girlfriend can’t even brush up against the left cheek of my ass without me cringing. Advil has become a daily routine. As far as energy and libido, better than gel… Tops. I’ve been able to train with intensity I haven’t had in years. Can’t do legs at all yet even with advil.
I’ve had three nose surgeries and elbow surgery and this procedure hurts like hell.
Brick, not coming down on you… Just my ass is killing me.
Chris, have you discussed the pain in the ass with the doctor? Perhaps there is something adverse going on, not just something to get used to? Any heat, swelling or redness? Your comment about “can’t even brush up against” makes me wonder if the nerves are hyperactive… something that I went through after my FUBAR surgery.
As for the positive results that you report, injected T would do that too.
Some people don’t care for injecting, myself included. I don’t see why I’d be inclined to do that when Androgel costs me 30 bucks a month and all I gotta do is rub on some gel that absorbs as fast as hand sanitizer. No other drugs needed either.
Chris, I know you weren’t coming down on me. Perhaps I expressed myself inapprorpriately as well. What I mean was that you gave KSman the impression that our doctor “pushes” Testopel over other drugs when in fact the guy goes over ALL prescriptions he offers and lets his patients make the decision as to what suits them best.
Dr. Mel goes over all. He gave me the choice. Started with Testim and so on.
I don’t have no redness, swelling, hot skin area. But it’s painful. Not uncomfortable… painful. I will call my Doc on Monday if no better. It is a minor surgical procedure so I’m staying positive but Testopel is far from painfree.
I’ve injected before and I really reacted badly. Plus I hate jabbing my leg twice a week. My ups and downs were terrible and estradiol shot up with HCG.
You said E2 of 44 = normal and in range.
E2 of 44 is extremely high and would cause multiple problems in most men.
because of your ongoing symptoms (which in my opinion seem to relate to your excess E2) you decided that injections weren’t working and you switched to pellets. Pellets will still give you high E2 (assuming your overall Testosterone stays at the same level) - so I would expect you to start feeling those symptoms come back pretty soon.
Brick - you have some good arguments, but you also miss the big picture in a lot of cases as you are fixed on defending your doctor and your particular point of view (which from an outside perspective is anti-injection).
What are the facts?
FACTS:
- Gels are generally more expensive then shots, but are also more likelty to be covered by insurance.
- Some people (a lot of people?) can’t absorb gels or any transdermal medication (after a possible short initial period of time).
- Gels can be convenient and do produce a more natural daily hormonal cycle (assuming they work for you).
- Pellets are a medical procedure that doctors get paid to administer.
- Doctors can make more money from pellets compared to other treatment options (and therefore is a conflict if all other methods have not been tried first).
- Pellets degrade over time resulting in a slow decrease in Test levels over the course of several months.
- Pellets carry the risks associated with minor outpatient surgery.
- Biweekly or weekly shots produce hormonal swings that results in bad side effects in a majority of cases (therefore everyone should stop comparing biweekly shots to other treatment options).
- Shots every three days or every other day produce a steady Test level that does not decrease over the week or month - allowing for better control of aromatase.
- Some people don’t want to give themselves shots. (fyi - injections to the ventragluteal are mostly painfree due to low nerve density in that area and easy to administer at least for myself)
Do you disagree or have anything to add to this list?
I like the price I pay for TRT most: $5 for 200 mg/ml 10ml.
“Brick - you have some good arguments, but you also miss the big picture in a lot of cases as you are fixed on defending your doctor and your particular point of view (which from an outside perspective is anti-injection).”
I’m not against injections. If someone does well with them, then fine. It’s not logical to me to put down something keeping people healthy.
I’m against self- and over-medication AND the bashing of SOME doctors who actually are well versed and HIGHLY qualified.
I’ll stick to defending my doctor and the others mentioned as long as people dismiss them and their work or who insist that these guys just don’t know how to get the job done.
I’m also going to ask again what’s wrong with increasing income through legitimate means (eg, quality healthcare)?
[quote]PureChance wrote:
FACTS:
- Gels are generally more expensive then shots, but are also more likely to be covered by insurance.
- Some people (a lot of people?) can’t absorb gels or any transdermal medication (after a possible short initial period of time).
- Gels can be convenient and do produce a more natural daily hormonal cycle (assuming they work for you).
- Pellets are a medical procedure that doctors get paid to administer.
- Doctors can make more money from pellets compared to other treatment options (and therefore is a conflict if all other methods have not been tried first).
- Pellets degrade over time resulting in a slow decrease in Test levels over the course of several months.
- Pellets carry the risks associated with minor outpatient surgery.
- Biweekly or weekly shots produce hormonal swings that results in bad side effects in a majority of cases (therefore everyone should stop comparing biweekly shots to other treatment options).
- Shots every three days or every other day produce a steady Test level that does not decrease over the week or month - allowing for better control of aromatase.
- Some people don’t want to give themselves shots. (fyi - injections to the ventragluteal are mostly painfree due to low nerve density in that area and easy to administer at least for myself)
[/quote]
Do you disagree or have anything to add to this list?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I’m also going to ask again what’s wrong with increasing income through legitimate means (eg, quality healthcare)? [/quote]
Nothing as long as the doctor has explored ALL other more cost effective methods and is not steering people to more expensive procedures that carry a higher medical risk (outpatient SURGERY vs shots twice a week) simple to make more money.
Since there is no way to 100% know someone’s motivation - saying that a doctor is only trying to help others AND he just so happens to be making more money AND he just so happens to steer people away from a known workable option (twice weekly shots - not the idiotic biweekly or weekly shot schedule) - means that there is no way to convince others that he is not taking advantage of people in need.
Chris seems to be describing pain without infection or obvious inflammation. This does sound like the pellet insertion has injured a nerve or the pellets are pressing on a nerve. This is a medical complication. Again, the local anesthesia during insertion would mask the pain of nerve trauma and this eliminates the feedback to the doctor that could otherwise allow for alteration of trajectory.
We also need to keep in mind the cost to the system, which can be vastly higher than one’s co-pay. And we also need to regard the costs to those who pay for drugs out of pocket.
Note that some do ok on transdermals and switch to injections because they find applying gels to be more of a burden than injecting.
When insurance hides the real costs, drug companies are motivated to create the highest cost testosterone delivery systems that the market can bear. And in many cases, these delivery systems produce inferior results.
B U M P
I was injected with the pellets approximately 1 month ago. So far so good, my mood, concentration, joints, lethargy has all improved noticably.
When I was first injected there was some discomfort in the area for about 2 days, but very bearable.
If the testopel continues in this fashion I would recommend it to all, it is the least laborious method and so far effective.
You got screwed with gels. They don’t work because they drive up E2. Just run 125mg/5 days and you don’t need to worry about HCG or an AI.