Done.
I’ve lived with chronic pain for 21 years, it can do a number on your psyche and general mental outlook, and eventually change your brain chemistry.
This I am sure of ;/
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
Done.
I’ve lived with chronic pain for 21 years, it can do a number on your psyche and general mental outlook, and eventually change your brain chemistry.
This I am sure of ;/[/quote]
you typed in past tense. did you get lasting relief? if so, HOW MAN?
Filled out the survey.
For the people who have been suffering from chronic pain for years, you need to read this:
@Da Man Reloaded - I understand you wrote your master’s thesis on chronic pain, but your description of your own pain does not seem to jive with the newest leading models for pain.
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
done.
I am also currently dealing with chronic pain, so let me know if I can be of anymore service to you. And I am absolutely interested in any and all results, from the survey to your final work.
When I submitted my masters thesis, the university actually had it posted on the department website for a month or 2. maybe yours will too and you could link to it.[/quote]
I have/ am dealing to. What’s your pain related too?
People don’t understand the psychological stain chronic pain can put on you. It’s not just a boo boo that hurts for a little while, it’s day in and day out of being miserable. It get’s to you after a while… I tell you, pain sucks.[/quote]
well shit, man, that sucks. misery does not actually like company when it comes to this crap.
I agree 20000% with pain sucking. I can deal just fine with short term pain of any intensity. It is the day in, day out CONSTANT pain that just wears on your soul over time… I have been dealing with it for almost 8 years now.
Mine is either myofascial or autoimmune. i have a doc appointment in a couple weeks to start digging in to the autoimmune possibility. I have psoriasis, so there is a chance it could be atypical psoriatic arthritis or some other autoimmune disorder that is somehow manifesting itself as muscular tension and pain. I most definitely have trigger points allover my body. the most painful and limiting are on the left side, though. Essentially from ear to toes anterior and posterior. frikkin blows goats.
how about you?[/quote]
Welp, I have a complication from surgery that just isn’t going away. I have edema in the lower musculature. The problem is, it’s not getting better. I just had another MRI, I am about to seek another opinion if he tells me tough shit again. I had the surgery to get out of chronic pain, not get a new and different source for it.
Edema is really a generic term that has no meaning really. It means basically that something is injured and swollen. After 10 months I should be tip-top and train full bore, but I cannot. The muscle hurt constantly and if I aggravate it, it hurts a whole lot. So I cannot train and I am not happy. I can ‘exercise’ but it really bothers me and it’s hard to get motivated when you have to suck it up the whole time.
[quote]challer1 wrote:
Filled out the survey.
For the people who have been suffering from chronic pain for years, you need to read this:
@Da Man Reloaded - I understand you wrote your master’s thesis on chronic pain, but your description of your own pain does not seem to jive with the newest leading models for pain.[/quote]
No, my masters was on prosthetic design.
I know there is a lot coming out as of late that indicates the brain is the main player. I completely understand this, but dont completely agree with it. If pain is 100% a phenomenon of the brain and CNS, why does local anesthetic work? if there is no signal going to the brain from the tissues, it shouldnt. There must be a tissue level component. If there is no tissue component, why do strong anti inflammatories work? Why does trigger point work help with the tension and pain? Yes, the brain most definitely assimilates and in the end creates “pain”. But it does it with input from the tissues. I completely agree there are changes in the brain with long term pain, and even changes in the spinal cord. but I still disagree that it is all from the brain. There are too many things that suggest the signal that becomes pain in the brain comes from the tissues. This view may completely change as i read more, but right now i have not been convinced.
Look up nociception and pathways of nociceptors.
A friend of mine (an anesthesiologist) did a very interesting procedure on me when I dislocated my spine doing squats. Just above and inside the point of injury he placed acupuncture needles deep into the muscle tissue and connected a neuro-stimulation unit to the ends. He then tuned the frequency and amplitude to proper levels, successfully canceling out the pain signals as they traveled to the brain. This also stopped the cascade of responses to the pain.
Also, just anecdotal, but after having worked with a quadriplegic for a number of years and seeing things like careless aides knock toenails off on doorjambs while moving him in his chair, I can tell you that when the spinal chord is severed and there is no communication between the injury site and the brain, there may as well not be an injury at all.
No inflamation, none of the physiological signs,- nada. They also take longer to heal, which may be related to the lack of response to injury, but a definitive conclusion is confounded by factors like poor circulation to the extremities and a bunch of other stuff.
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
I know there is a lot coming out as of late that indicates the brain is the main player. I completely understand this, but dont completely agree with it. If pain is 100% a phenomenon of the brain and CNS, why does local anesthetic work? if there is no signal going to the brain from the tissues, it shouldnt. There must be a tissue level component. If there is no tissue component, why do strong anti inflammatories work? Why does trigger point work help with the tension and pain? Yes, the brain most definitely assimilates and in the end creates “pain”. But it does it with input from the tissues. I completely agree there are changes in the brain with long term pain, and even changes in the spinal cord. but I still disagree that it is all from the brain. There are too many things that suggest the signal that becomes pain in the brain comes from the tissues. This view may completely change as i read more, but right now i have not been convinced.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone ever has suggested that changes in tissue have no impact on the pain experience. I think the book I recommended summarizes it succinctly enough with:
“Many and varied cues may relate to the pain experience, but it is the brain which decides whether something hurts or not, 100% of the time, with no exceptions.”
Explain Pain does not suggest that tissues have no impact on the pain experience, just that the brain summarizes its available cues including the physical (tissues, inflammation, immune activity) with brain-related cues (expectation, past experience, mood, threat level).
This is not to say that the tissues have no impact on pain, but rather that brain states may amplify or minimized pain signals from the tissue.
An example of amplification would be a paper cut. Paper cuts typically only occur when you are in a rush, stressed out, and often pissed off. They hurt like hell even in spite of minor tissue damage.
An example of the the brain downplaying pain would be the way that veteran woodworker might accidentally hit a finger tip with their hammer and report little pain simply because its happened so many times before that their brain is able to assure them that this is not a serious injury.
Local anesthetics work because they do stop pain signals from transmitting to the brain along with the fact that when you get a local anesthetic you are under the expectation that it is not going to hurt.
With that said, I challenge two things that you said in your post. The first:
“Yes, the brain most definitely assimilates and in the end creates “pain”. But it does it with input from the tissues.”
That part is simply not true - the mere existence of phantom pain disproves that. There is no tissue to cause pain and yet most amputees develop phantom pain.
Furthermore, the mere thought of thinking about moving a painful body part can cause pain and swelling. You can read about that here: http://www.rsds.org/pdfsall/Moseley_Zalucki_Birklein.pdf
Secondly, you mentioned as a counterpoint, “Why does trigger point work help with the tension and pain?”. I would challenge that notion on a few grounds.
Since you have been dealing with painful trigger points, I am curious to know what exactly is a trigger point? I know what the people trying to sell trigger point therapy will say, but I mean what truly is a trigger point? What creates them? Why do they exist? What do they look like if you cut someone open to look at them? How will trigger point therapy help over the long term?
[quote]challer1 wrote:
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
I know there is a lot coming out as of late that indicates the brain is the main player. I completely understand this, but dont completely agree with it. If pain is 100% a phenomenon of the brain and CNS, why does local anesthetic work? if there is no signal going to the brain from the tissues, it shouldnt. There must be a tissue level component. If there is no tissue component, why do strong anti inflammatories work? Why does trigger point work help with the tension and pain? Yes, the brain most definitely assimilates and in the end creates “pain”. But it does it with input from the tissues. I completely agree there are changes in the brain with long term pain, and even changes in the spinal cord. but I still disagree that it is all from the brain. There are too many things that suggest the signal that becomes pain in the brain comes from the tissues. This view may completely change as i read more, but right now i have not been convinced.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone ever has suggested that changes in tissue have no impact on the pain experience. I think the book I recommended summarizes it succinctly enough with:
“Many and varied cues may relate to the pain experience, but it is the brain which decides whether something hurts or not, 100% of the time, with no exceptions.”
Explain Pain does not suggest that tissues have no impact on the pain experience, just that the brain summarizes its available cues including the physical (tissues, inflammation, immune activity) with brain-related cues (expectation, past experience, mood, threat level).
This is not to say that the tissues have no impact on pain, but rather that brain states may amplify or minimized pain signals from the tissue.
An example of amplification would be a paper cut. Paper cuts typically only occur when you are in a rush, stressed out, and often pissed off. They hurt like hell even in spite of minor tissue damage.
An example of the the brain downplaying pain would be the way that veteran woodworker might accidentally hit a finger tip with their hammer and report little pain simply because its happened so many times before that their brain is able to assure them that this is not a serious injury.
Local anesthetics work because they do stop pain signals from transmitting to the brain along with the fact that when you get a local anesthetic you are under the expectation that it is not going to hurt.
With that said, I challenge two things that you said in your post. The first:
“Yes, the brain most definitely assimilates and in the end creates “pain”. But it does it with input from the tissues.”
That part is simply not true - the mere existence of phantom pain disproves that. There is no tissue to cause pain and yet most amputees develop phantom pain.
Furthermore, the mere thought of thinking about moving a painful body part can cause pain and swelling. You can read about that here: http://www.rsds.org/pdfsall/Moseley_Zalucki_Birklein.pdf
Secondly, you mentioned as a counterpoint, “Why does trigger point work help with the tension and pain?”. I would challenge that notion on a few grounds.
Since you have been dealing with painful trigger points, I am curious to know what exactly is a trigger point? I know what the people trying to sell trigger point therapy will say, but I mean what truly is a trigger point? What creates them? Why do they exist? What do they look like if you cut someone open to look at them? How will trigger point therapy help over the long term?[/quote]
Man, let me apologize, I sounded like a total dick in that post. I just popped back into the post in injuries and rehab where there was some dude that kept changing his statements on pain and pain perception. It got on my nerves. My bad.
that being said, I dont buy the papercut thing. Look where they usually occur - the pad of your finger. The place that is chuck full of sensory nerves. The relative damage is pitifully low, but the number of nerve endings is akin to your leg from hip to ankle. The brain state probably does have an impact, but the number of sensory nerves has too, as well.
as far as the hammer, repeated blows can also desensitize nerve endings.
The mere existence of phantom pain does not disprove local anesthetics tissue response. Phantom pain was a topic discussed in my thesis, so i am well versed in this. ugh, i am finally tired and just typed about 500 words of nonsense. i will resume soon.
I would like to know if you know of any studies demonstrating that anesthetics have no greater efficacy than a placebo (probably saline or glucose). Otherwise the expectation argument is nothing but pure, 100%, undiluted conjecture. Now, dont get me wrong, expectation and perception have amazing impacts on humans, if you are not familiar with it check out the central governor theory. I actually spoke with one of the main proponents and researchers on this subject at a conference in Singapore. Awesome guy, the stuff he did to athletes and normal people is hilarious. damn i miss that job.
anyhoo, to be continued…
I did the survey because I’ve had chronic pain on my knee (specifically, tibial tuberosity) for 11 months now, and haven’t been able to squat/deadlift at all like I used to. Even had to stop competing in O-liting. MRI result showed grade 2 chondral (cartilage) thinning at the origin of pain (lateral posterior tibial plateau), with underlying T2 hyperintense bone marrow change (whatever that means).
So yeah.
Hey, Just bumping this to say thanks to everyone who filled in the survey, my dissertation is now complete and sent off for marking!
[quote]pgtips wrote:
Hey, Just bumping this to say thanks to everyone who filled in the survey, my dissertation is now complete and sent off for marking! [/quote]
Let us know how you do…
What’s the degree in?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]pgtips wrote:
Hey, Just bumping this to say thanks to everyone who filled in the survey, my dissertation is now complete and sent off for marking! [/quote]
Let us know how you do…
What’s the degree in?[/quote]
Thanks, will do!
I’m not actually doing a degree this year, I’m at comunity college doing something called an access course. I don’t have A levels (Equivalent to US high school qualifications I think)
I am however going to be doing a degree in Physiotherapy in september after completing the course I’m doing now and I’m planning on saving the subject of the dissertation for my final year physio dssertation and pretty much redoing it with access to all the journals and studies.