Supplemental Leucine

Diet and Nutrition
1

Okay, After reading tons of stuff on how Leucine signals protein synthesis moreso than the other BCAAs, and even writing back and forth with Layne Norton concerning the actual studies he did for his Doctoral Thesis, I’ve bought a few bottles of free form Leucine, and will be taking 1.5g daily spaced between my regular feedings.

An older guy I talk to sometimes has been doing this for a while, and says he has seen results in just a few weeks. Now, I’m currently cutting, so I don;t expect to see huge gains, BUT if this can prevent any muscle loss in the process, I’ll be sold on its use.

Just wondering ig anyone else has played around with this before, and figure I’ll post on here if I notice anything worth mentioning in my own trials.

S

2

My general question for anyone taking a supplement is do you think you’re deficient in leucine, and this will catch you up, or do you expect that “Extra” leucine will give you extra benefit?

My own thought is that for most things, once you’re getting enough, more is not better. If you’re taking BCAA and/or whey you’re already likely getting more leucine than any other essential amino acid.

3

THat was my original contention, but apparently supplemental free form leucine affects your plasma levels in a much more dramatic (and quicker) fashion than any that your body liberates from whey or BCAAs (it was my actual email question to Norton when I first wrote him -lol)

And in this case, it’s not so much that you are deficient, but an attempt to signal protein synthesis and in effect keep it ‘turned on’ throughout the day (I could be wrong, but this is what I make of all of the mimbo jumbo out there at the moment)

S

4

Well Lecuine is not synthesized in animals so it must be ingested, so basically everyone is deficient in it.

here is an interesting article on Leucine slowing muscle loss in rats

5

Are you two in the same room? lol. (avatars)

6

[quote]elusive wrote:
Are you two in the same room? lol. (avatars)[/quote]

lol yeah same gym

7

Fair enough.

I might give it a go too, with classes out I have some time too mess around with things. I enjoy threads like this, I really love experimenting.

8

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
…apparently supplemental free form leucine affects your plasma levels in a much more dramatic (and quicker) fashion than any that your body liberates from whey or BCAAs …[/quote]

You have confused me. Leucine is a BCAA. I’m no chemist so how exactly does Leucine differ from L-leucine found in BCAA powders?

9

It doesn’t differ, chemically. Stu was saying that Leucine, ingested by itself, is different than obtaining leucine in conjunction with the other two branched chains, isoleucine and valine.

10

I have done this. Based on the same research you’re talking about, I added leucine in workout window. Dosage was around 4 grams per day, which was probably too high as it was like a fire inside you.

Initial gains were 7-8 lbs in two weeks, followed by a tapering off. After about a month, no additional effect was found, unless you count explosive diarrhea (see below).

I did notice that I had to boost the protein intake considerably to feel “right”. Expect to burn through two Surges and tub of Grow in a month’s time.

I was probably up around 400g/day when my body finally “down-regulated” or whatever, and my shakes were ending up in the toilet instead of my muscles. So I backed off and went back to 20g BCAA, and steady 1-2 lb/week gains.

I did manage to outgrow a few dress shirts and a pair of jeans, so hell yeah! Best of luck to you, let us know how it goes.

-Sab

11

Sabastian, You only added leucine peri-workout? I thought Stu was talking about splitting 3 doses up and having them throughout the day between meals?

12

[quote]forkknifespoon wrote:
Sabastian, You only added leucine peri-workout? I thought Stu was talking about splitting 3 doses up and having them throughout the day between meals?[/quote]

Yeah, I stacked mine on top of my normal pre- and post-workout shakes. Stu does have a more clever idea, trying to boost anabolism through the day. I’m looking forward to reading it.

-Sab

13

Sebastian- That’s some serious gains for such a short duration. My current prot intake is probably around 250-300/day, with a handful of BCAAs midworkout (mayb 2-3g). Like I mentioned, I’m currently cutting on a very simple carb cycling regimen, and am hoping to hold fast to my LBM, which so far (going as slowly as I can), is looking successful. I’m sure someone actually trying to gain might be better suited to try a higher dose than I’m using (like your experience), but I’ll stick with the 1.5g and see how things are looking in a week or two.

S

14

Stu - Any updates on your experiment?

I dug out my old logs, because I wanted to start Leucine supplementation again. I was doing 4 tbsp of Leucine, not 4 grams. It ends up being about 20g Leucine. I isolated all other variables too, no extra BCAA, just Surge and MD. I’m running this again now, and the familiar burning sensation came right back, so I know it’s working. Cool stuff.

-Sab

15

[quote]Sabastian525 wrote:
Stu - Any updates on your experiment?

I dug out my old logs, because I wanted to start Leucine supplementation again. I was doing 4 tbsp of Leucine, not 4 grams. It ends up being about 20g Leucine. I isolated all other variables too, no extra BCAA, just Surge and MD. I’m running this again now, and the familiar burning sensation came right back, so I know it’s working. Cool stuff.

-Sab[/quote]

LOL. Someone always has to try the extreme. More is not necessarily better.

Anyway, thought I’d link to this, if anyone is interested in Layne Norton’s views/research on Leucine.

16

[quote]Pansee Sauvage wrote:

LOL. Someone always has to try the extreme. More is not necessarily better.

Anyway, thought I’d link to this, if anyone is interested in Layne Norton’s views/research on Leucine.

[/quote]

Awesome!! Thanks for sharing.

17

Okay, OCtoberGirl sent me some links that had me rethinking the whole idea of taking leucine between feedings to have a constant anabolic environment going. I read some thoughts by Thibs where he raised the possibility of the elevation of insulin caused by Leu’s anabolic effects actually creating a fat storing rsult.

Soooooooooo having emailed Layne Norton about a year or two ago when I first read about his research, I asked him what he thought about Thib’s ideas. Here are the emails for your perusal: :slight_smile:

From: Stu
Date: Jul 2, 2008 8:38 AM

Heya Layne, hope the injury’s healing up (mentally as well, I know how you can get knocked for a loop with any serious mishap).

Well over a year ago you responded to a few questions I had about supplemental leucine. ANyway, these days you seem to hear about it everywhere you turn. I had picked up some Capsules online, and had the notion of popping a few between feedings, hoping to keep the protein synthestis machinery chugging along all day, but I read something that made me reconsider. Coach Christian Thibaudeau, in a recount of his own protocols, touched on the significant insulin surge created by ingesting leucine, and considered the possibility that at any time other than post workout, the chronic elevation might indeed promote fat gains. Considering that I’m currently trying to lean out a bit, I was shocked to say the least. So now my own thoughts are to just throw a few down with my PWO shake, and with my morning and pre-bed feedings. If you have any thoughts on the matter, I would certain appreciate suggestions.

Thanks so much bro. All the best,

Stu

P.S. I know you’re techinically still coming off a damn serious injury, but any new ‘life of a natural pro’ episodes in the works? That’s probably the most inspiration that exists for guys who skip the gear-route.

From: Layne
Date: Jul 2, 2008 6:50 AM

Stu,
i’m afraid what he does not realize is the insulin release created by leucine is much different than that created by carbs. Carbs create a biphasic release… the first part being a dumping of stored insulin, the 2nd phase being a release of manufactured insulin until the blood glucose is disposed of. Leu only causes the first phase… the release of the stored insulin, with no additional release… so in the end the overall release is relatively small. Plus Leu has been shown to improve body composition with long term supplementation and improve insulin sensitivity. so that does not fit well with his theory.

Very intersting stuff Layne (thanks for the reply). My whole concern is if it’s going to be counterproductive to my goals, but I guess not. I just figured it’d be a good sort of insurance against losing too much LBM while cutting. While I’m at it, I’m only been ingesting a small amount (maybe 1.5 -2 g spread over the day), but did read of one individual who actually took in 7-9g a day and claimed to have put on a good deal of size. Now of course we don’t know his training or dietary protocols, so I’m not really giving it too much credence, but still, before my little leu-experiement, I had been taking a handful of BCAAs midworkout, which I felt helped my recovery a bit (and looked as if I was holding more size, unless of course it’s all in my head -lol). My thoughts now are whether I should even bother with BCAAs, or just throw dome some leu tabs?

Thanks!

Stu

From: Layne
Date: Jul 2, 2008 7:00 AM

either would work fine

S

18

Interesting stuff.

19

Any updates on this. I’ve been thinking this might be interesting.

20

Well, I’ve been taking 1g - 1.5g with breakfast, and post workout (+ a handful of BCAAs mid workout), and I honestly am shocked that my weight is still in the 190’s despite obviously getting leaner.

My ultimate goal, is 185, but as I have no real time frame, I’m not going to rush things and lose LBM in the process. I do wonder whether the Leucine is what’s allowing me to maintain my size. It will be interesting to see how much I’ve retained when I hit my goal weight.

S