[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I just want to state that this is a very offensive thread that cries of anti-semitism of the worst kind.
That being said, I think we should hear more outrage from some of you that would object if other minority groups would be attacked like this.
Imagine a post with pictures of Clinton (or Bush for that matter) at a Congress for Racial Equaility convention saying how we are being sucked into supporting African American issues by a strong “black” lobby. Imagine a post like that? I think that would bring on a tummult of outrage.
Where’s the outrage here?
[/quote]
Um, no. African-American issues are domestic. The “American” part of African-American might have tipped you off there. The issue with Israel is completely different, because it’s a foreign country, which would seem to be pretty obvious.
I abhor (as much as you can take somebody’s posts on an internet forum that seriously) JustTheFacts’ anti-Semitic paranoia, and I don’t support OKLAHOMASTATE’s generalizations about the media, but I think it’s entirely right to examine our unquestioned “alliance” with Israel. Let me ask you this: do you think it’s possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic? There’s a real question for people who start throwing Holocaust rhetoric around whenever anyone questions why we let Israel work us over on a regular basis or run a borderline appartheid state.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I just want to state that this is a very offensive thread that cries of anti-semitism of the worst kind.
That being said, I think we should hear more outrage from some of you that would object if other minority groups would be attacked like this.
Imagine a post with pictures of Clinton (or Bush for that matter) at a Congress for Racial Equaility convention saying how we are being sucked into supporting African American issues by a strong “black” lobby. Imagine a post like that? I think that would bring on a tummult of outrage.
Where’s the outrage here?
Um, no. African-American issues are domestic. The “American” part of African-American might have tipped you off there. The issue with Israel is completely different, because it’s a foreign country, which would seem to be pretty obvious.
I abhor (as much as you can take somebody’s posts on an internet forum that seriously) JustTheFacts’ anti-Semitic paranoia, and I don’t support OKLAHOMASTATE’s generalizations about the media, but I think it’s entirely right to examine our unquestioned “alliance” with Israel. Let me ask you this: do you think it’s possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic?
[/quote]
No I really don’t. At some level, an “anti-zionist” is anti-semitic . Unfortunately, it is often at a very apparent level…
[quote]
There’s a real question for people who start throwing Holocaust rhetoric around whenever anyone questions why we let Israel work us over on a regular basis or run a borderline appartheid state.[/quote]
Hey friend, it is more than “Holocaust rhetoric.” When your people are slaughtered in the most massive slaughter in the history of the last several hundred years, then you will have the right to talk about “rhetoric.”
It is not “rehetoric” it was real and I say: NEVER AGAIN!
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
No I really don’t. At some level, an “anti-zionist” is anti-semitic . Unfortunately, it is often at a very apparent level…[/quote]
How exactly is it anti-semitic to be “anti-zionist”?
[quote]grew7 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
No I really don’t. At some level, an “anti-zionist” is anti-semitic . Unfortunately, it is often at a very apparent level…
How exactly is it anti-semitic to be “anti-zionist”?[/quote]
Why don’t you study some history and then you answer your own question.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Yeah yeah yeah. I’m sure we’re all dupes of the Israel lobby. This must be part of the smear campaign too…
Israel Lobby
By RUTH R. WISSE
March 22, 2006; Page A16
[/quote]
Yeah, pretty much duped.
Those guys had a giant set of balls to come forward with this study knowing the predictable rabid response – everybody man your battle stations!
Undo influence indeed…
WEXNER ANALYSIS:
ISRAELI COMMUNICATION PRIORITIES 2003
Among Evangelicals, A Kinship With Jews
Some Skeptical of Growing Phenomenon
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 8, 2006
Of course Mr “18% Approval Rating” won’t even come out of hiding unless it’s to address the “Apocalypse” crowd.
Pro-Israel Activists Cheer Cheney
Embattled Bush Team Gets Boost At Aipac Parley
By E.J. KESSLER
March 10, 2006
WASHINGTON - Even as President Bush’s popularity dropped to record lows, his administration was embraced warmly this week by the thousands of delegates at the most influential annual gathering of American Jewish activists.
[…]
The enthusiastic support for Netanyahu and Bush administration hawks underscores what appears to be a widening gap between pro-Israel activists in Washington on the one hand and the Israeli and American publics on the other.
[…]
Aipac also appears to be out of step with the American Jewish community on Iraq. Like many other American Jewish organizations, it supported the Iraq war. But 70% of American Jews oppose the Iraq war, according to a poll commission by the American Jewish Committee at the end of 2005.
~Sen Fullbright, Chair of Senate Foreign Relations Committee on CBS’ “Face the Nation” Oct, 7 1973
Jewish History Month proposal up to president
Miami Herald
Dec. 16, 2005
The House of Representatives approved a resolution Thursday 423-0 calling on the president to proclaim January as Jewish History Month
~ Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Vietnam War
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I just want to state that this is a very offensive thread that cries of anti-semitism of the worst kind.
That being said, I think we should hear more outrage from some of you that would object if other minority groups would be attacked like this.
Imagine a post with pictures of Clinton (or Bush for that matter) at a Congress for Racial Equaility convention saying how we are being sucked into supporting African American issues by a strong “black” lobby. Imagine a post like that? I think that would bring on a tummult of outrage.
Where’s the outrage here?
[/quote]
That may imply that we’re much too sensitive about the possibility of giving racially or culturally based offense generally.
I don’t think the authors of this study were motivated by anti-Semitism - at least you can’t make that conclusion solely on this study. Which doesn’t mean I don’t think it won’t be misconstrued and used in an anti-Semitic fashion. It clearly will – see David Duke and the Islamic Brotherhood rep quoted above.
But, that said, I would like to see this study critiqued for its poor reasoning and overly broad conclusions - and there is plenty to criticize there - rather than shouted down because it is supposedly based in some sort of racial or cultural bias.
Now, I realize that it makes for a cultural double standard – OK to criticize Jews based on race/culture, not OK to criticize other groups. But I’d rather move toward a point in which we were more free to discuss ideas, irrespective of their potential for offense, rather than less free.
The main problem is that if you do manage to shout down some study and/or idea solely because it’s racist or biased, you don’t ever end up convincing anyone it’s wrong on its merits, which is the important part. Then it just stays around and festers underground, because it isn’t exposed to the light of sound reasoning and exposed for the crap it is.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Do you like Jewish people?
Yes or No…
[/quote]
I could care less whether someone is Jewish, black, French, Christian, Hindu, aethiest, Somoan, whatever. I take people at face value and don’t judge them by what race or religion they are.
So no, I don’t have a problem with Jewish people. A problem does arise though, when you realize (I live in NYC- I came to this realization after a lot of interaction with Jewish people through work and school) that a lot of Jewish people, living here in America, care more about Israel than America. Thats BS. Those people should move to Israel.
And no, being anti-Zionist does not mean you’re anti-Semitic.
Also, Israel is not a democracy. Name one other democracy in the world where racial discrimination is sanctioned.
Perhaps major media outlets tend to favor Israel because the other side keeps walking onto buses with bombs strapped to them.
Major media outlets tend ro favor Israel because 90+% of the media is owned/operated by Jewish people. I’m sure JustTheFacts can provide a link, but all the major networks/newspapers are owned/operated by Jewish media moguls. The BBC is a far more onjective source of info on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
[/quote]
Once again–and this is the last time I’m going to ask nicely without saying unbelievably rude things about your hayseed ass–please provide FACTS to back up your statement.
Do not go running to a poster no one takes seriously who digs up all his bullshit theories from www.tinfoilhat.com.
Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Viacom and GE are publicly owned. So, the “90%” figure you pulled out of your ass is nonsense.
Back up your ludicrous, Jew-hatin’ statements with facts or fuck off and don’t come back.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Harris hit the nail right on the head – Israel is a key in fighting those who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people – even here in the U.S. Therefore, it makes political and security sense to fully support the Jewish State, which is the only democracy mind you in the Middle East right now.
[/quote]
This cracks me up. The Palestinian people and Al-Quaida are not the same entity, nor do they have the same goals. Al-Quaida is a worldwide terrorist organization that is actively planning to attack us. The Palestinians are a group of people pissed because they were kicked off their land via force and have no desire to ever attack us. Please don’t equate the two groups, because they have nothing in common. Even the Pope agrees with me on this!! Trust me, if some Mexicans came and kicked my out of my house in Oklahoma because it used to be their land thousands of years ago, you bet your ass I would fight back.
This is the reason those Israeli foreign agents were so happy after 9/11, when they were caught on videotape dancing on top of a van and lighting cigars while the towers burned in the background- they could now equate Palestinians fighting back with Al-Quaida terrorism. Thankfully, a lot of us are smart enough to know the two groups have absolutely nothing in common.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Once again–and this is the last time I’m going to ask nicely without saying unbelievably rude things about your hayseed ass–please provide FACTS to back up your statement.
Back up your ludicrous, Jew-hatin’ statements with facts or fuck off and don’t come back.
[/quote]
NBC, ABC and CBS are all owned by Jewish dudes. The executive producer of those networks’ nightly news are all Jewish. The boss at CNN, Rick Kaplan, is jewish. Do you really expect objective reporting on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when the decision-makers at these news networks are Jewish? I sure don’t. Again, the BBC is a much more better source of news reporting on this conflict.
The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post, the most influential papers, are all Jewish-owned and operated. Then you have 26 more major city papers that are Jewish owned and operated, like the Boston Globe, Cleveland Plain Dealer, and Newark Star-Ledger.
Does this bother me? No, I really could care less. But again, I’m smart enough not to rely on the major media for objective reporting on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I just want to state that this is a very offensive thread that cries of anti-semitism of the worst kind.
That being said, I think we should hear more outrage from some of you that would object if other minority groups would be attacked like this.
Imagine a post with pictures of Clinton (or Bush for that matter) at a Congress for Racial Equaility convention saying how we are being sucked into supporting African American issues by a strong “black” lobby. Imagine a post like that? I think that would bring on a tummult of outrage.
Where’s the outrage here?
Um, no. African-American issues are domestic. The “American” part of African-American might have tipped you off there. The issue with Israel is completely different, because it’s a foreign country, which would seem to be pretty obvious.
I abhor (as much as you can take somebody’s posts on an internet forum that seriously) JustTheFacts’ anti-Semitic paranoia, and I don’t support OKLAHOMASTATE’s generalizations about the media, but I think it’s entirely right to examine our unquestioned “alliance” with Israel. Let me ask you this: do you think it’s possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic?
No I really don’t. At some level, an “anti-zionist” is anti-semitic . Unfortunately, it is often at a very apparent level…
[/quote]
Can you please explain this? How is it anti-Semitic to question a political ideology built on taking a country from its inhabitants and installing a state ruled by one religious group? How does principled anti-Zionism automatically imply anti-Semitism?
Don’t fucking lecture me about the Holocaust, I’ve been to Auschwitz, and I think it takes a lot less than that to realize that the Holocaust was “real.” But when you resort to using it as a talking point anytime unquestioned U.S. support for Israel is attacked, you make it just that, rhetoric.
Would these people be saying the same thing if we went to the defense of France or Germany (our so-called NATO allies – I think not!). Why Israel then?
Next thing I’ll read here is that we Jews control all the banks and money as well!
Israel is a key ally in a extremely sensitive area of the world.
Key ally huh? Do most of our key allies spy on us (Pollard, AIPAC) and bomb our warships (USS Liberty)? Just curious, but I don’t think even the craven French steal our secrets or murder our sailors. Maybe I’m wrong.
No, they just stonewall us when we ask to fly over their territory for military operations; they oppose us in the world community when we try to bring freedom to others; they talk about “counterbalancing” us with the EU after we liberated all of them from Hitler’s grip…
…but you guys worry about the Jews and that tiny little country called Israel…
You know, the Holocaust was a horrible, tragic event.
Yet it amazes me that many Jewish people who escaped the Holocaust alive and moved to what is now Israel treated the indeginous Palestinians the same way the Germans treated them. Freaking unbelievable.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
You know, the Holocaust was a horrible, tragic event.
Yet it amazes me that many Jewish people who escaped the Holocaust alive and moved to what is now Israel treated the indeginous Palestinians the same way the Germans treated them. Freaking unbelievable.[/quote]
That’s just not true. The Palestinians are oppressed by the Israelis, who took their land, no question there. But this isn’t genocide, not by any stretch.
It could, however, be termed an appartheid state. And there are many Jews inside Israel who feel the same way. One Israeli professor was quoted in Ha’aretz a couple of years back (I can’t find the citation, you’ll have to trust me on this) saying the occupied territories have bred a “Herrenvolk” culture, in which the Palestinian is increasingly seen as an “untermensch.” He is not the first person to worry that Zionism has done more harm to the Jews than the Arabs, by turning them into oppressors.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
It could, however, be termed an appartheid state. And there are many Jews inside Israel who feel the same way. One Israeli professor was quoted in Ha’aretz a couple of years back (I can’t find the citation, you’ll have to trust me on this) saying the occupied territories have bred a “Herrenvolk” culture, in which the Palestinian is increasingly seen as an “untermensch.” He is not the first person to worry that Zionism has done more harm to the Jews than the Arabs, by turning them into oppressors.[/quote]
Well, according to Steve that Jewish professor is obviously anti-Semitic, since he thinks there is no difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
You know, the Holocaust was a horrible, tragic event.
Yet it amazes me that many Jewish people who escaped the Holocaust alive and moved to what is now Israel treated the indeginous Palestinians the same way the Germans treated them. Freaking unbelievable.[/quote]
You are an idiot if you thinkthis is remotely true.
Guys, I come from a Country with anti hate speech laws, so don’t imagine I’m some type of anti-semetic. We don’t go for that shit around these parts.
However, at the same time, the fact that genocide did occur does NOT provide a free pass for future transgressions by those that were previously persecuted.
Do I know for a fact that Israel is more into the US government than it should be, no, but if they are, then they should be distanced. Israel is not the USA, and as a seperate country, though an ally, it must also respect the US.
It is NOT anti-semetic to examine this issues rationally and see if undue influence is present. Nobody would think twice about examining an Arab lobby group that appeared to have influence across a wide swath of leadership of the nation.
Any interest group that has such an ability to influence the US to it’s own agenda needs to be watched like a hawk.
The never again rhetoric is right, but that doesn’t excuse misbehavior. It is not anti-anything to at least investigate and if something was done wrong to take appropriate action to correct it.
The absolutist knee-jerk reaction is the type that in fact can cover new atrocities… as a sane, rational and careful view is required AT ALL TIMES to really avoid such events.
…
Any interest group that has such an ability to influence the US to it’s own agenda needs to be watched like a hawk.
…
[/quote]
That’s all of them. How much are we paying for sugar again? Anyway, some good points – we need to be able to discuss issues without having the topic shouted down for being politically incorrect (and let me restate that I think this study is largely drivel).
You are an idiot if you thinkthis is remotely true.[/quote]
You’re an idiot if you believe the Israelis didn’t start evicting Palestinians from their homes by force when they starting arriving en masse to that region.