Strong Words... Atomic Bomb

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
Guess who our closest relatives are? Great apes… Chimps’ DNA is 98% identical to us, and their behavior reflects it. [/quote]

Ummmm…dude. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that all DNA on this planet is 99% the same–that is, the difference in DNA between a shrub and Arnold Schwarzenegger is .01. Okay, maybe not a good example. The difference between a chimp and a fern is 99% the same so what does this have to do with the atomic bomb. You seem to have hijacked your own thread.

Though humans tend to be ape like at times and apes sometimes are human like (especially if you lock them in a cage)I think their DNA is irrelevant to why they commit acts of aggression and vice verse.

Most of the physicists were recruited into the Manhattan project at Los Alamos. Most of them were very young in their fields and worked out-side of their major fields of study. Most of them were not experimentalists but rather theorist new to the emerging field of quantum mechanics (which was only about 2 decades old at the time).

Oppenheimer himself was only in his twenties and under suspicions from the US of being a communist. Though most new that what they were creating was not going to be good–it was a new frontier of science and they were just motivated to see if they could get it to work.

If you want to read some funny and anecdotal stories about this interesting period in our history you should read “Surely You Must Be Joking, Mr. Feynman”, an autobiogrphy of Richard Feynman. If you want to read something a little more serious (though rigorous) I suggest “Inward Bound–of Matter and Forces in the Physical Universe”, by Abraham Pais.

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
I didn’t mean ‘engineers’ so literally. Also, it seems as if what you said about possible Soviet sympathies contradicts what you said about ‘flaglessness’. After V-E day, they were manufacturing an exclusively American weapon (no knowledge sharing with any of the Allies, and definitely not the Russians) for use to end the war and to deter the next enemy, of course the Communists. Those without whose intellects we would have no Bomb, the ‘waterfall chasers’ of whatever sort (to disambiguate completely), had to have some motivation whose roots were determinist/objectivist in nature in order to finish the race without an opponent running alongside.[/quote]

By flaglessness, I meant that a world at war was curiously a world united. Joe Stalin sits side by side with Churchill. Poles and Russians and French and British and Australians and Americans all regarded each other as “us”. This is how the UN got started at the close of the war. That, plus how the war ended.

In fact, the technology did get shared with the other allies, because of the cold war. Even just after Trinity, I think many observers felt the thing was definitely bigger than any single national government. They were already wondering how proliferation would be handled. Most technologists could see this was inevitable. Perhaps this was larger than any single nation state.

Many of the more important nuclear workers were what some on this site would label “ultra-liberals”. WWII was seen by many Europeans as a war between fascism and communism. But it was the FBI that decided that this meant there might be Soviet sympathizers. They had to keep an eye out in any case. But in fact there weren’t, until the era after the war.

I think people found different motives to go on. When you work on a problem for a while finding the solution becomes part of your identity. Also a team such as this, and its problem, takes on a life of its own. Finally Oppenheimer played a huge role in keeping everybody on the bandwagon. His leadership was an enormous factor.

I tend to doubt that anybody had a single motive. And it’s a pretty complicated situation; nobody’s competing at the moment, but if you stop you’ll never know until too late if somebody else does start. I suppose this qualifies as sweetness, but I think to the individuals involved the taste was more one of fear.

I think Oppenheimer’s comment embraced humanity, not merely the team working on the project. It’s not about waterfall chasers, it’s about waterfalls. Oppenheimer meant that the development was sweet to the existing state of knowledge.

Oppenheimer’s comment betrays his perspective as a Physicist. But it’s not just some physicists to be explained here, it’s the entire ‘silverplate’ phenomenon that built Los Alamos like magic in the middle of the desert, and Oak Ridge. That happened because of the fear of the Allies coming out second best to the Nazis in the world’s first nuclear arms race.

It wasn’t sweetness that built the bomb, it was fear of sweetness.

just read through this and i have to reinforce the message from another of your threads…

“some of the dumbest people i know, are those who think they know it all”

you are entitled to your opinion! however, your opinions have been broken down and dissected by much more knowledgeable members, and proven to be ill-founded.

you have been owned!!!

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
[/quote]

Hey no fair!!! You can’t have that ass as your avitar!!! Everyone will agree with all your posts, no matter what they say!! LOL Ok so I wish it was mine.

My granfather and Great uncles served in WWII. It is in their opinion that what America did when they dropped the bomb on Japan was save American lives.

It is also a well known fact that the invasion of Japan would have cost thousands of American casualties. I feel what we (America) did back then was justified. In a war innocent people get killed. We may not have been in WWII had the Japanese not bombed Pearl Harbor.

Hirohito stated after they bombed Pearl Harbor that they “woke a sleeping giant”. That is exactly what they did.

All is fair in Love and WAR

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
XCelticX wrote:
I NEVER called all Japanese innocent, I said the civilians who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were.

Why bother to make the distinction? Innocence only matters in peacetime. It’s not fair to bring it up now as if it should have been considered then. It definitely should not have been considered then.

Many of these Japanese civilians were as innocent as Rosie the Riveter - which is to say, not very. They were no more innocent than any other of the civilian populations that got the bejesus bombed out of them in WWII. Bombing ‘innocent’ civilians - men, women and children - was an inevitable collateral effect of an important military strategem in that war, for all sides. At that scale of conflict, warfare is directed as much as possible at the economic means of warfare, also at the logistical tail. This means ‘innocent civilians’ take it in the neck big time.

After years in which innocent civilians on all sides had died like flies, nobody cared if five million further Japanese had to die in a heartbeat, if that’s what it took to end the war even one week sooner. There were no innocent Japanese. Not even the ones living in this country as US citizens, which were rounded up and put into camps.

By corollary, there were no innocent Americans either.[/quote]

How could you not see the obvious distinction between a Japanese soldier who killed allies and possibly committed the atrocities you speak of and a civilian working in the factory most of the other civilians were working in providing for the war effort? What would you expect them to do, try to find work elsewhere? Leave their mothercountry? Ignore or be against the war effort, making thousands of enemies out of your own countrymen?

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Chinups or not you’re still retarded. Focker, out. [/quote]

Aw you don’t hafta be jealous now… lmao

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
XCelticX wrote:
Guess who our closest relatives are? Great apes… Chimps’ DNA is 98% identical to us, and their behavior reflects it.

Ummmm…dude. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that all DNA on this planet is 99% the same–that is, the difference in DNA between a shrub and Arnold Schwarzenegger is .01. Okay, maybe not a good example. The difference between a chimp and a fern is 99% the same so what does this have to do with the atomic bomb. You seem to have hijacked your own thread.
[/quote]

Sorry man, but you are COMPLETELY wrong in everything you say here. Man and chimp DNA is 98% identical, and most of the great apes are within 1-2% of that. A chicken’s DNA, on the other hand, is only 60% identical to human DNA.

You could find research containing human DNA being compared to alot of different animals if you want to look for it. You’d see what you should expect: Mammals(especially primates) have DNA very similar to ours, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, plants and fungus are much farther out in that order from most identical to least identical to our DNA.

[quote]
Though humans tend to be ape like at times and apes sometimes are human like (especially if you lock them in a cage)I think their DNA is irrelevant to why they commit acts of aggression and vice verse.[/quote]

I missed this quote in my last post…

There obviously is a big correlation between behavior and DNA.

War can be defined as a calculated attack from a group of animals. The only 2 species that do that on Earth are chimpanzees and human beings. You could argue it is only instinct for the chimps to attack, except for the calculation part. Chimps scan the edges of their territories for the enemy, and when they are ready they go in groups of 4-8 males and sometimes a female to invade the enemy’s territory and hunt down and kill one or more of the enemy. But if the invading party sees that they are at a disadvantage, and there are enough enemies to cause significant damage to their party, they flee back into their own territory until they have the upper hand.

We do exactly the same thing fundamentally, although of course our abilities of communication and our bigger brains have allowed us to make war a far more complex science.

Chimp groups are run by groups of males in a hierarchy, just like us. The males are bigger and stronger, so the females generally are held in low respect. Females are raped and battered, just like in our species. The only animals that rape and batter females are the great apes and humans.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put this information together and see the obvious truth.

Count another vote for the nukes. Long live American military might!!! God help us all if we keep yielding to the will of the global neighborhood. I’m sure they’d all love to see us militarily castrate ourselves.

[quote]XCelticX wrote:

Either way, I guess my anger is pointed more at whoever the asshole was who decided to drop the bomb on Hiroshima. I hope he(or they) feels or felt the guilt of that senseless killing for the rest of his(their) life.[/quote]

Ummm…that would be Truman…there are 1x10^6 books on WWII in the library…may I suggest you redirect your anger/ignorance towards reading a couple?

Chimps and humans are not the only animals to make calculated attacks.

Wolves hunt in a coordinated systematic manner where members of the pack will perform specific tasks.

Hirohito wasn’t the one who made the sleeping giant remark it was admiral Yamamoto.

The number of genes we have in relation with other animals is not all that important.

The more complex an organism the more likely it became that way by extracting multiple meanings from individual genes.

[quote]pja wrote:
Ummm…that would be Truman…there are 1x10^6 books on WWII in the library…may I suggest you redirect your anger/ignorance towards reading a couple?
[/quote]

I KNOW it was Truman, I never suggested anyone else made the decision.

Sifu wrote:
Chimps and humans are not the only animals to make calculated attacks.

Wolves hunt in a coordinated systematic manner where members of the pack will perform specific tasks.

I didn’t say calculated attack or hunting, I said WAR. That is a battle between multiple animals of the same species.

How do you define ‘complex’ in that sentence?

You didn’t explain why you think the number of genes we have in relation to other animals isn’t important, therefore you’re making a blanket statement with no backup.

What does “extracting multiple meanings from individual genes” mean?

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Chimps and humans are not the only animals to make calculated attacks.

Wolves hunt in a coordinated systematic manner where members of the pack will perform specific tasks.

I didn’t say calculated attack or hunting, I said WAR. That is a battle between multiple animals of the same species.

Hirohito wasn’t the one who made the sleeping giant remark it was admiral Yamamoto.

The number of genes we have in relation with other animals is not all that important.

The more complex an organism the more likely it became that way by extracting multiple meanings from individual genes.

How do you define ‘complex’ in that sentence?

You didn’t explain why you think the number of genes we have in relation to other animals isn’t important, therefore you’re making a blanket statement with no backup.

What does “extracting multiple meanings from individual genes” mean?[/quote]

What in the hell does this have to do with the poor little innocent Japanese that died SIXTY FUCKING YEARS AGO??!!!

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
XCelticX wrote:
Guess who our closest relatives are? Great apes… Chimps’ DNA is 98% identical to us, and their behavior reflects it.

Ummmm…dude. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that all DNA on this planet is 99% the same–that is, the difference in DNA between a shrub and Arnold Schwarzenegger is .01. Okay, maybe not a good example. The difference between a chimp and a fern is 99% the same so what does this have to do with the atomic bomb. You seem to have hijacked your own thread.

Sorry man, but you are COMPLETELY wrong in everything you say here. Man and chimp DNA is 98% identical, and most of the great apes are within 1-2% of that. A chicken’s DNA, on the other hand, is only 60% identical to human DNA.

You could find research containing human DNA being compared to alot of different animals if you want to look for it. You’d see what you should expect: Mammals(especially primates) have DNA very similar to ours, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, plants and fungus are much farther out in that order from most identical to least identical to our DNA.
[/quote]

All DNA contains chains of pairs A, T, G, C, respectively. The DNA is the same make-up of chemical though it is the pairing and order that’s different. You never distinguished your understanding of this. You merely stated their DNA was 98% close–which any idiot with a search engine could find. Every search link in Google under “DNA Chimp Similarities” will quote this same number. Thanks for the info Sherlock–and just so you know you are quoting Creationist’s statistics.

I hate this thread, that is all.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
What in the hell does this have to do with the poor little innocent Japanese that died SIXTY FUCKING YEARS AGO??!!!

[/quote]

Well I was discussing war, why we do it and why chimps to it. Its human behavior, raid and rape, so it obviously does apply to war even if it happened 60 years ago. You were the one trying to argue that American soldiers are perfect and never raped, killed innocents, or stole. I explained how that is impossible, especially in a war that HUGE.

I don’t need to distinguish something everyone learns as a freshman in high school or earlier.

[quote]
You merely stated their DNA was 98% close–which any idiot with a search engine could find. Every search link in Google under “DNA Chimp Similarities” will quote this same number. Thanks for the info Sherlock–and just so you know you are quoting Creationist’s statistics.[/quote]

LOL

What is your point? I never said anything about how hard it was to FIND the info, I only claimed that it backed up what I was trying to say, that DNA similarities are higher when behavioral similarities are, and vice versa. The more identical the DNA of 2 creature, the more similar the body and behavior.