Striking Theory: 10 Points to Help Stand Up Sparring

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I think you really don’t understand what I’m saying.

There is no camp to rally behind like with “high reps vs low reps” or in MA context “traditional vs MMA” etc.

If you haven’t read or analyzed into this stuff, you probably fall under what I already wrote (ie “most guys do this without knowing it”).

When an experienced fighter goes to town, he makes one decision if he’s the attacker.
And zero decisions if he’s attacked

Processing options is tiresome for the brain.
It takes AT LEAST 0.5 seconds (in tests even up to one full second) to make a conscious decision.
Funny thing is, the subject realizes this not sooner then 0.2 seconds before initiating.
This is a bizarre situation for most (“you say my brain decides before me?”).
For a fighter, this is especially interesting because you also telegraph beforehand - unknowingly.

If you’re in the melee whirl, it’s all instincts, rythm, chaos.
[/quote]

I agree with what you’re saying, I understand. Yea, alot of that shit you’ll do automatically if you been fighting for a long time.

But I do think that a lot of fighters still think in the ring, Floyd Mayweather being one of them.

That’s as opposed to Pacquiao or a guy like Marquez, who just goes with the flow, as you say, and has a game plan and executes it with brutal intent.

Most fighters are not like Mayweather in that regard. Probably why they all lose to him though.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Mmmm…I’m in the action is faster camp. Schwarzfahrer, I get the whole alpha state of mind thing where your reactions are so immediate they are practically part of your attacker’s movement. But I don’t see how that makes them faster, as you’re still having to process the situation to be able to react to it, even when we’re talking fractions of a second. This may simply be a philosophical difference related to style.

Lucid, maybe instead of presenting fighting defensively as the best way to fight for beginners, perhaps it could be presented as something useful to try, for all the reasons you present? I agree its a good way to get overly-aggressive noobs to calm down a bit. However, when I fight defensively I tend to fight more timidly in general, and I have not found this to be helpful. I do like how you’re using defensive fighting to encourage a relaxed & mindful state during sparring. You’re so right about people quitting quickly after a few rounds. Everybody wants to be a fighter but nobody wants to get hit.

On the spell check issue, please find a grammar nazi to read the article for you. There are a few things in there that spell check will not catch, mostly words that would have been spelled correctly if used in another context. I’m not saying the context used is wrong, btw. I like the article & think its great that you’re taking you’re blog idea and running with it. Most people yap on about what they’re “gonna do”. You’re doing it for real. Nice job.[/quote]

I’m taking that into consideration. Im still a believer beginners should still have a strong defense foundation. The reason why is because when your gasing and hurt you go to what you know on a fundamental level. Its not very flashy and new guys dont like it, but in the end, once the defence is down, they can go on to become head hunters if they want.

Basically, you can take a fighter who learned defense as a foundation and let them turn into head hunters. But its very rare that you’ll find a head hunter willing to develop the discipline to become a defensive counter fighter

I do agree i need to handle the grammer, just been a busy week with the Canadian thanksgiving. Ill start working on the grammer tonight. I usually pop in when im working when im between calls or approvals etc.

Thanks for the feed back…

Also, i enjoy the debates guys, I’m always open to new ideas that can help myself or others get better! Cain in his last prime time broke down a thinking fighters vs a reactive fighter as well. Not sure if everybody caught that. This thread popped in my head when i heard cain talk about it.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
What are we talking about?
A rapist attacking from the shrubbery or an agonistic scenario?
To keep things debatable, we should assume both opponents -antagonistic or agonistic- are facing each other and one tries to bridge and “attack by drawing”.
If he does that by going with pure action, the other one WILL notice it beforehand, even before the attacker(!), assuming he has attained an advanced level of combat training.
[/quote]

Since we’re talking about sparring, or even sport striking competitions like boxing, I was speaking more so to an “active combat” scenario where both fighters realize that it’s a fight and there isn’t really any chance of “ambushing” one’s opponent.

“Pure” action (meaning the complete lack of response to one’s environment) is pretty much impossible and not what I was talking about. Obviously there is some element of reaction (reaching the correct distance, being in the correct alignment, probing the opponent’s defensive tendencies to allow you to employ a strategy to exploit those tendencies) to pretty much all combative skills. But the notion that one doesn’t act, but instead only react disallows one the use of anything but reflexive action, which is a fine skill to have, but isn’t going to take you very far (unless you’ve got tremendous physical gifts).

As far as you noticing what someone else is going to do before they do, that’s again pretty much mystical nonsense. I’ve yet to see anyone actually be able to read someone else’s mind. Unless there is either a disconnect between the attacker’s mind and their actions, or a physical telegraph, you won’t be seeing it coming before it’s actually coming.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
If that’s the case, the sport of boxing would be a boring mess, since simple reaction tests reveal a certain temporal threshold even striking beginners can overcome with ease.
Thankfully for the martial arts, this theory is completely wrong.
[/quote]

Not at all. There is such a thing as the “time/distance” variable, which all good fighters attempt to manipulate to their advantage. If someone is far enough away, then you can see the attack coming in time to be able to defend it, but if they are close enough (and have decent speed and have learned the techniques correctly so they don’t telegraph) then you will not be able to. Most good fighters learn where this “critical distance line” is, and try to keep their opponent’s just outside of it, or cheat their way just inside it (using fakes, evasive headmovement, etc…) to either be able to defend their opponent’s attacks, or land their own.

The art of effectively closing the gap (without missing or getting hit) is one of the most difficult skills in all of fighting to master, and one of the reasons why not every lead off technique lands. Not because the fighters are reading each others’ minds.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
“Reacting” can mean a lot of things. A martial athlete can and should learn to attack not because he feels aggressive or compelled by his rage but when he sees or even senses an opening.
[/quote]

That’s one reason, sure. But he can also attack to probe his opponent’s defense, to maintain distance, to “draw” a counter attack to create an opening, etc…

Again, there is some element of reaction, yes, but there is also deliberate action. Neither should really exist at the exclusion of the other, at least not unless you are far superior to your opponent (like Mayweather or Roy Jones) and can simply outclass them. If it’s a fairly even match, or you are even at a disadvantage physically, then strategy will play a much greater role in helping you win than simply reacting.

Sentoguy, is basically saying what i was trying to say but much better.

Ill give a even better example of a boxer who looked the complete opposite of his glory years when he got old - Tyson. He had the most insane speed and reaction time of any HW i know. If there is one who could shoot 4 punches in one second, please let me know. He had a reaction time that would rival welterweights. But the moment he slowed down and got older… all his most effective tools were broken down and worn out. He was just a shell of his former self. (in some ways for the better, as he matured and grew as a person. He lost his killer instinct. however as a person and human being he’s become a very inspiring person)

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:

Sentoguy, is basically saying what i was trying to say but much better.

Ill give a even better example of a boxer who looked the complete opposite of his glory years when he got old - Tyson. He had the most insane speed and reaction time of any HW i know. If there is one who could shoot 4 punches in one second, please let me know. He had a reaction time that would rival welterweights. But the moment he slowed down and got older… all his most effective tools were broken down and worn out. He was just a shell of his former self. (in some ways for the better, as he matured and grew as a person. He lost his killer instinct. however as a person and human being he’s become a very inspiring person)[/quote]

I agree. A good example, however, of a fighter who can STILL close the gap whenever he wants even as he ages is Floyd Mayweather.

He is helped by his tremendous speed, sure, but his timing and accuracy are what really make him the fighter he is. He’s also adjusted as he’s gotten older to compensate for his reflexes slowing by fighting in a slightly different manner.

And also- Ricky Hatton was VERY good at closing gaps quickly. Shitty defense, but very nice footwork when getting inside.

As far as the action/reaction comments are going, I realize all of your points but I believe you guys are misunderstanding each other. In a way it is a ‘reaction’ that is thought out and that you are the one acting upon.

It’s more of the fact that if you train enough and fight enough, certain situations present themselves where you “re-act” by instinct, but you are the one originally acting. It becomes muscle memory, not necessarily letting the other guy run the fight.

I know what you’re saying, and I think for 98 percent of fighters, that’s correct. But what I’m saying is that the very best of the fighters DON’T rely on that, and think and adjust very actively through the fight. I don’t think most people are capable of this.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:

Sentoguy, is basically saying what i was trying to say but much better.

Ill give a even better example of a boxer who looked the complete opposite of his glory years when he got old - Tyson. He had the most insane speed and reaction time of any HW i know. If there is one who could shoot 4 punches in one second, please let me know. He had a reaction time that would rival welterweights. But the moment he slowed down and got older… all his most effective tools were broken down and worn out. He was just a shell of his former self. (in some ways for the better, as he matured and grew as a person. He lost his killer instinct. however as a person and human being he’s become a very inspiring person)[/quote]

I agree. A good example, however, of a fighter who can STILL close the gap whenever he wants even as he ages is Floyd Mayweather.

He is helped by his tremendous speed, sure, but his timing and accuracy are what really make him the fighter he is. He’s also adjusted as he’s gotten older to compensate for his reflexes slowing by fighting in a slightly different manner.[/quote]

But Mayweather is one of the best examples of a defensive fighter counter fighters ever in boxing. Even the shoulder roll, its a prime example of a counter punching stance.

[quote]dles91 wrote:
As far as the action/reaction comments are going, I realize all of your points but I believe you guys are misunderstanding each other. In a way it is a ‘reaction’ that is thought out and that you are the one acting upon.

It’s more of the fact that if you train enough and fight enough, certain situations present themselves where you “re-act” by instinct, but you are the one originally acting. It becomes muscle memory, not necessarily letting the other guy run the fight.[/quote]

Good point and I agree

Most fighters train to react to many situations, as long as the reaction is appropriate to take advantage. Eg: Trigger Points, If I feel something there BOOM, muscle memory reaction! Doesnt necesarrily mean you have to be on the recieving end and getting hit in an open or exposed area.
Just reacting appropriately, how you were trained. Trigger points.

By the way awesome post, got some good $#!t we could talk about for ages!

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:

  1. Not every hit has to hurt - i see guys wanting to throw knock out jabs or leading with wide hooks or getting flustered because they keep missing punches. Over time you realize not every punch or kick has to hurt. The jab for example is like the can opener, the big right is like the spoon. You have to make a opening before you can scoop it out. Learn to set up attacks. A light leg kick might be enough to make them drop their guard opening them to a punch. Or they tend to brace for body kicks leaving their legs wide open and planted. Think… think… think… think… think! Fight smarter not harder.

[/quote]

i kinda disagree here, but maybe i’m reading too much into this…

i think everytime you throw a strike or attempt a takedwon, it needs to be legitimate. even if you’re just planning on throwing a jab to find your range, it needs to be crisp so that he/she needs to react. i think this is something i’ve seen with people that don’t push themselves in sparring, and later in a hard, fast pace fight they gas when you don’t expect it. if people aren’t used to exploding, being on guard, etc, when they have to be, it’s amazingly fatiguing.
[/quote]

I totally, see that for MMA. However, often the threat of a hard landed strike is enough to make them move. Often the first 1 minute ill throw a stiff snapping jap so they know i can throw it hard. But after if they have a tight guard often i use my jab like a swat to open the other guys guard so set up my right.

However, in thinking i do see your point. I will make changes saying all strikes should be thrown with authority. Ill be interested to see more feed back. If the general feeling is that all shots should be done with authority and power, ill go with the general censuses opposed to just my own person view and style. [/quote]

Not all techniques have to be thrown hard. Exerienced fighters will get your respect by throwing lets say some Authoritive shots first, looking for weaknesses, getting you to respect and fear their power. They will sell you the same technique more times than once. Experience fighters condition their opponents to what to expect. Then they will sell you a bit of convincing body language, ease up on the power vary the combination to take advantage of their opponents reaction and emphasize power to the last 2-3 techniques thrown. Half the fight is getting you opponent flinching at every moment you make, chess remember. Doing something to make him react where you want him to be. Why exert 100% if you dont have to.
And I think thats what you originally were getting at. Good point.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I think you really don’t understand what I’m saying.

There is no camp to rally behind like with “high reps vs low reps” or in MA context “traditional vs MMA” etc.

If you haven’t read or analyzed into this stuff, you probably fall under what I already wrote (ie “most guys do this without knowing it”).

When an experienced fighter goes to town, he makes one decision if he’s the attacker.
And zero decisions if he’s attacked

Processing options is tiresome for the brain.
It takes AT LEAST 0.5 seconds (in tests even up to one full second) to make a conscious decision.
Funny thing is, the subject realizes this not sooner then 0.2 seconds before initiating.
This is a bizarre situation for most (“you say my brain decides before me?”).
For a fighter, this is especially interesting because you also telegraph beforehand - unknowingly.

If you’re in the melee whirl, it’s all instincts, rythm, chaos.
[/quote]

I agree with what you’re saying, I understand. Yea, alot of that shit you’ll do automatically if you been fighting for a long time.

But I do think that a lot of fighters still think in the ring, Floyd Mayweather being one of them.

That’s as opposed to Pacquiao or a guy like Marquez, who just goes with the flow, as you say, and has a game plan and executes it with brutal intent.

Most fighters are not like Mayweather in that regard. Probably why they all lose to him though.[/quote]

Every successful boxer thinks in the ring to some extent, if not about his opponent then focusing on his strategy. If you want to see guys not thinking in the ring then buy a PPV and watch the low profile undercards LOL.