Im on trt for 4 months its feel gud but now we want a another baby im 32yr old so my Q is how to start my PCT i inject my last injection today
I inject 50mg E3D testoviron depot
Nothing els no hcg or clomid
250IU hCG MWF
Novadex 40mg/40/20/20/20
Why donât you just add HCG. Lower cypionate a little and use HCG to take over that loss. The only reason you are not fertile is because you are not on HCG and the systems shut down. Removing cypionate is not going to help with fertility. If I am missing a key point please tell me, but I feel itâs uneeded.
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I was in a similar boat and the wife is 2 months pregnant now (fingers crossed).
I had to come off. I tried hcg but got nothing. You need fsh AND lh, and hcg is only a lh analog with no fsh. You can try hmg which is an analog of both and see if that works.
You could also try a bit of clomid without stopping to see if that helps. But Iâm not too sure of these methods. Only a sperm test can truly tell.
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@mr.inquisitive that is awesome news congrats.
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Got it and I forgot about that. So yes add HCG and FSH. See if that helps.
I thought HCG works the same with or without the cypionate:trt. Please explain how it works better for fertility if you only take HCG Chlomid and etc and remove the trt?
As long as you are on any synthetic test you wonât have much of a lh or fsh signal, which is what leads to sperm production.
Clomid raises both and hcg is a lh analog, which is another way of saying the body reads it as lh and it stimulates the lh processes. HCG will mimic LH whether or not youâre using testosterone but you wonât have fsh unless you stop the test.
Iâm not sure of this, but hcg alone might be able to shut you down, and lower fsh, even while mimicking lh, and this may affect your sperm count.
So what you do depends upon how much time you have and if youâre willing to try and restart. If you have all the time in the world, then you can stay on trt, while you llook into hmg, which is a lh and fsh analog. If thatâs not feasible then try low dose clomid with your trt and get a sperm test. If that doesnât work, then youâll need to come off testosterone completely. Clomid could help a restart. Iâve heard of some trying hcg alone for trt but I would get a sperm test to clarify whatâs happening.
thatâs roughly the algorithm I went through.
best of luck to you and thanks for the congrats. We are very excited!!
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Stimulation of Sperm Production by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin after Prolonged Gonadotropin Suppression in Normal Men
First published: MayâJune 1985
https://doi.org/10.1002/j.1939-4640.1985.tb00829.x
Cited by: 13
PDFAbstract
The precise hormonal milieu required for quantitatively normal spermatogenesis in man is unclear. The authors previously have shown that both supraphysiologic dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and physiologic dosages of human luteinizing hormone (hLH) can reinitiate sperm production in shortâterm (four months) gonadotropinâsuppressed normal men who have prepubertal FSH levels. To determine whether normal FSH levels were necessary to stimulate sperm production after a prolonged period of gonadotropin and testicular suppression, the authors administered hCG to four normal men whose endogenous gonadotropin levels and sperm production were suppressed by prolonged exogenous testosterone (T) administration. After a 3âmonth control period, all subjects received 200 mg of T enanthate intramuscularly (im) each week to suppress LH and FSH for a total of 9 months and until successive sperm concentrations (performed twice monthly) revealed azoospermia or severe oligozoospermia (mean sperm concentration < 3 Ă 106 spermatozoa/ml) for 6 months. Then, while continuing the same dosage of T enanthate, all four men simultaneously received 5000 IU of hCG im three times weekly for 6 months, replacing LHâlike activity and leaving FSH activity suppressed. The effect on sperm production of the selective FSH deficiency produced by hCG plus T administration after the period of prolonged gonadotropin suppression was determined.
Exogenous T administration resulted in severe suppression of sperm concentrations from 79 ± 7 à 106 spermatozoa/ml (mean ± SEM) during the control period to 0.8 ± 0.5 à 106/ml after 12 weeks of T treatment. With the addition of hCG to T, sperm concentrations increased significantly in all four subjects, reaching a mean of 24 ± 4 à 106 spermatozoa/ml after 12 weeks of hCG plus T administration. However, no subject achieved sperm concentrations consistently in his own control range during this period. Sperm morphology and motility were consistently normal in all men during hCG plus T administration.
Throughout the entire 9 months of prolonged exogenous T administration alone and 6 months of hCG plus T treatment, serum FSH was reduced to undetectable levels (< 25 ng/ml). Urinary FSH excretion was in the normal adult range during the control period (238 ± 29 mIU/h). FSH excretion was markedly suppressed to the ranges found in prepubertal children and adults with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism during the periods of prolonged T suppression (44 ± 15 mIU/h) and hCG plus T (38 ± 6 mIU/h) administration.
The authors conclude that sperm production can be reinitiated by hCG after prolonged gonadotropin and testicular suppression, despite markedly suppressed FSH levels. Normal levels of FSH are not an absolute requirement for reinitiation of sperm production in gonadotropinâsuppressed men. However, since neither supraphysiologic dosages of hCG nor physiologic dosages of hLH are able to return sperm counts to fully normal levels during selective FSH deficiency, it is hypothesized that normal levels of both FSH and LH are necessary for quantitatively normal spermatogenesis in man.
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Interesting find highpull. They used much higher doses than I ever did. I was using more like 500 iu 3 times a week and the study uses 5,000 iu 3 times a week.
From the study above, 5,000 only brought up sperm counts to an average of 24, when the pre-trt average was 80. So the sentence in bold is important but the one right after it is too. I donât know what the minimum is to father a child but I donât really see why you wouldnât try and get fsh signaling too, since thatâs an options nowadays. HMG doesnât scare me any.
I was always advised not to go that high on HCG due to long-term desensitization. That was a consideration for me at the time but now itâs not. Iâve heard doctors mention that over 40, the low dose hcg wonât do much for you anyways, as the testicular cells have atrophied.
I donât know, 5000 is a lot, but plenty have been able to conceive on TRT with 250IU 3x/wk hCG.
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I have heard that too over the years. I also read studies similar to whatâs above.
So for me, I just tested, as that seemed to be the only way to be sure.
I had nothing at 250/week and nothing at 500 3 times a week but coming off did work for me. I had 550 test with 65 shbg pre-trt, so that was a short term option. idk about other people - it could be different. It took 2 months to get a normal count after being on aroung 1 1/2 years.
To echo @hrdlvn a bit, Nolvadex (tamoxifen) stimulates LH and FSH production.
At least it happened for you. Clomid, right? Congratulations. Very interesting how we respond differently. We conceived both of our children when I was towards the tail end of a couple of the largest and longest AAS cycles (no hCG) I ever did. I assured my wife the rhythm method would work fine and I was likely not very fertile anywayâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠ
Thank you. And back to you too!!
It is interesting what works/doesnât for different people. I think it takes a few months for sperm to grow, so there may be a delayed effect for some of these strategies. Either way, I prefer to test - Iâm a mediocre scientist at best.
Yea, I ran some clomid right when I decided to stop. It probably helped although I donât know what would have happened without it.
Hopefully this baby thing will work and then I can go right back to cruising.