Stop T Supplementation in Favor of HCG/AE?

Pharma TRT
1


I’ve been using 50 mg of T Cyp weekly. Latest #'s were Total 674 ng/dl and 20.2 Free (test taken one week after last shot). My urologist suggested that since I plan on having kids someday I should go off Test and see and Endo to determine an alternative course (aromatase inhibitors, etc.) He suggested I do this w/the endo and that I come back to him in 6 months and test for spermatogenesis (something related to this).

From what I’ve read on the board here it would appear that you can take exogenous T w/HCG and that this may be a better route. I have done adex in the past (only) and my total T was only 351 ng/dl.

Anyway, I don’t plan on having kids soon…Just someday. Also, whether there is any reality to it or not, I’ve read enough to convince me that a T level between 700-800 ng/dl would be ideal so I’m not crazy about reducing my total T by stopping endogenous use.

Any thoughts on stopping Test Cyp in favor of HCG, etc. and/or doing both?

***EDIT: the amount of T used should read 100mg, not 50. The 100 mg dose was divided into 2 different injections the week I took the above blood test (to establish a good baseline) and the blood panel was taken 3 days after the last injection.

2

So last night I decided to stick myself in the ass w/my remaining ~60mg of T. Cyp. I’m going to purchase HCG and/or HMG and/or clomid. Currently I have anastrazole and Nolva. At this point I think clomid would be better than Nolva. I’m also seriously considering getting a T refill for the time being also. Thanks for your responses.

3

With that pix you should be banned from this site! -seriously

Have you read any of the stickies?

Clomid is worse than nolvadex, I repeat that almost every week.

4

390×685 60.2 KB

Ah, the pic is just fun. If the stickies mention not posting fat superheroes w/“F” emlazoned on the front, I haven’t read them. I’ve seen far worse as avatars, never mind a lone picture; although on this site, if nearly porno pics are prohibited (like seen on other “bodybuilding” forums), I think that’s to be applauded. In the future I will consider this before posting a pic.

Yes, I read the stickies, but they didn’t address my issues; neither did your response. I’ve gotten an answer from another site from someone who has firsthand experience with a similar situation. Both clomid and Nolva have their place. I’d venture to guess you probably have studied “this stuff” a lot but your Nolva comment sure doesn’t make you seem worthy of (a seemingly self-appointed) guru.

**The superhero theme I seem to have going is purely coincidental

5

Nolva does what is needed without the risks for some of severe estrogenic side effects. Clomid has a lot of research because it is old and was first in the game. The fact that clomid is used a lot and recommended over and over again does not mean that it is the best or safest SERM. If you know that you tolerate clomid, use it if you need a SERM.

I asked if you had read the stickies as T+AI+hCG will do what you are wanting. TRT without hCG is very high risk for fertility. [Most guys here are older and maintaining testes for self image, for wife or GF and for pregnenolone production.] Note that male contraceptives that cause HPTA shutdown do not have any reputation for really working well either - and have never been commercialized.

Your T levels one week after injecting are very good and unexpected. It would be better to test 1/2 way between injections and better also to inject at least twice a week. You may feel better.

Adex cannot properly manage E2 levels with weekly injections as T levels are changing to much. And T peaks from weekly injections also create higher amounts if E2 and SHBG.

Understand issues and changes for anastrozole over-responders.

All of the above can be found in the stickies. You did not come back for clarifications of these points.

Try T+AI+hCG and then have a sperm count done later on to see how you are doing. hCG does have some cross activation of FSH receptors. If the testes are maintained, a SERM or HMG can always be introduced to improve fertility when needed. There really is not a strong argument to stay on a SERM or HMG permanently -or long term. Long term SERM use has risks as well.

"Any thoughts on stopping Test Cyp in favor of HCG, etc. and/or doing both? "
If hCG increases T, HPTA shutdown and low FSH should result. In that regard, your question does not make any sense as you have HPTA in both situations. If you are younger and have healthy normal testes, secondary hypothyroidism, then you could be a candidate for LH replacement doses of hCG, 250iu SC EOD. Do not get into high dose hCG as you can induce primary hypogonadism. Again, hCG can shut off LH and FSH.

I don’t think that you should stop TRT.

Most injectors do this, which others have coined the ‘standard protocol’.

100mg/week T ester injected twice a week or EOD, can be IM or SC, can use insulin syringes
1.0mg anastrozole per week in EOD divided doses [difficult with 1m tabs]
250iu hCG SC EOD

Refine adex dose to get near E2=22pg/ml. Come back for dose correction calculations if you have not otherwise found that.

6

Thanks for the feedback, ksman. I never have used clomid for the estrogenic/strange side effects you mentioned, opting for Nolva as the better choice. And to this point, have hardly used Nolva eithr. AI’s are mostly what I’ve used. I’m not convinced at this point Clomid is something I wouldn’t use, but you seem to make an educated argument. I just need to purchase the ancillaries. I had been researching HMG, but think I’m going to go w/Clomid and/or Nolva, HCG and adex (which I have). I’m ostensibly going to follow a protocol that works for another guy I’ve corresponded with.

Also, thanks for the protocol suggestion. I’ve made note of it.

7

I like that pix, where did that stapler go?

Just to clarify, you would not use hCG and a full dose SERM at the same time, LH receptor overload.

You would not use high dose SERMs as your pituitary could produce damaging amounts of LH, overload.

Never discussed this before, but one could use hCG and low dose SERM to create a favorable level of FSH which would not need to be very high for the purposes of keeping the testes in prime condition. Again, sperm counts would tell the rear story.

There is research on the WWW showing that 5mg of nolvadex has good effects on the HPTA and that the “standard” 20mg is not needed. SERM dosing gets confused across male HPTA use, gyno and female breast cancer dosing. Hard to get people out of the one size fits all assumptions and then there is the bro-practice of more must be better. So do we know exactly what to do? - no we do not. But we can make educated steps in the right direction.

When searching the WWW, note that the amounts used in research studies are not dose recommendations when the intent of the study was to determine dose-response reaction data. What we really need are minimum effective dose data that might be found in clinical research papers.

8

BTW and just for the record, “T supplementation” is an invalid concept as small amounts [supplemental] of T will reduce [what is left of] your own T production and net gain is near zero. To increase T, one typically needs to take enough T to replace their existing production then more to increase levels beyond that. The Replacement in TRT is meaningful.

You cannot add a supplemental amount of T to your own natural level of T.

9

agreed.

10

That picture in the OP is what you get when you google “fat chick”. I’ve used it many times.

11

I collected many pics over the years as I often use them on my facebook updates. I’ve got a pic for just about any mood =>D

12

[quote]KSman wrote:
I like that pix, where did that stapler go?

Just to clarify, you would not use hCG and a full dose SERM at the same time, LH receptor overload.

You would not use high dose SERMs as your pituitary could produce damaging amounts of LH, overload.

Never discussed this before, but one could use hCG and low dose SERM to create a favorable level of FSH which would not need to be very high for the purposes of keeping the testes in prime condition. Again, sperm counts would tell the rear story.

There is research on the WWW showing that 5mg of nolvadex has good effects on the HPTA and that the “standard” 20mg is not needed. SERM dosing gets confused across male HPTA use, gyno and female breast cancer dosing. Hard to get people out of the one size fits all assumptions and then there is the bro-practice of more must be better. So do we know exactly what to do? - no we do not. But we can make educated steps in the right direction.

When searching the WWW, note that the amounts used in research studies are not dose recommendations when the intent of the study was to determine dose-response reaction data. What we really need are minimum effective dose data that might be found in clinical research papers.[/quote]

13

[quote]KSman wrote:
I like that pix, where did that stapler go?

Just to clarify, you would not use hCG and a full dose SERM at the same time, LH receptor overload.

You would not use high dose SERMs as your pituitary could produce damaging amounts of LH, overload.

Never discussed this before, but one could use hCG and low dose SERM to create a favorable level of FSH which would not need to be very high for the purposes of keeping the testes in prime condition. Again, sperm counts would tell the rear story.

There is research on the WWW showing that 5mg of nolvadex has good effects on the HPTA and that the “standard” 20mg is not needed. SERM dosing gets confused across male HPTA use, gyno and female breast cancer dosing. Hard to get people out of the one size fits all assumptions and then there is the bro-practice of more must be better. So do we know exactly what to do? - no we do not. But we can make educated steps in the right direction.8

When searching the WWW, note that the amounts used in research studies are not dose recommendations when the intent of the study was to determine dose-response reaction data. What we really need are minimum effective dose data that might be found in clinical research papers.[/quote]

I’ve been trying to get hardasnails to let me try a serm. Or a diferent ai like aromasin forever now instead of Adex. Adex keeps my E2 in check but gives me so many sides lethargy, swollen glands, headaches and trashes my lipids. Aromasin is on paper way better for men with less sides. Without any management I loose all libido, symptoms of gyno, acne. I have read many others do this because AI’s are to strong. I ask about it and the only answer I ever get from anyone is you don’t use a serm long term. Ok why? Arimidex doesn’t work there has to be other options whether it be script or OTC. I’ve also tried DIM AND RESVERATROL. DIDNT WORK. Can anyone point me to literature showing its ok to use a serm or a different AI Nolva,clomid,toremfiene, or any others I don’t know about. Or anything else that works. I’ve wasted a year of my life chasing Estrogen levels and problems.

14

I spend 4 years chasing e2 as well. It was not untill I dumped the HCG that I finally was able to stablize resulting having morning erections that one can hang a coat from, mood stability, better orgasms, libido, better muscle growth, sleep, ect. I prefer to have smaller balls with better quality of life. Since I had a genetic mutation in cyp 1a1 1b1 resevatrol and Dim was the answer for me.

When you stopped the adex you where still on HCG. When I felt the best was when total T was in the 400-500 range with e2 of 20 shbg of 20. Now having an SHBG of 50 I require higher dosages of testosterone. It was not until I added the HCG that all my problems started.

Depending on where your shbg is then you would need more test more frequently. Now insurance companies are starting to dictate what is medically necessary. Dr john is getting letters about HCG, AI, T are not medically proper. I would not have a problem with trying arosamin, but I do not think it is your issue. How is the insurance companies going to justify it if these other top drs are having issues? Aromasin Large dosages of T can cause alteration in the Amygdala in some men.

This area of the brain has major impact on dopamine signaling involving moods, energy, libido mainy of the issues you are currently dealing with. Chasing e2 may be masking a deeper problem that is at hand here. HMG at dosages of 75-210 mcgs a week is used to keep FSH in check. Its ratio is about 2/3 FSH 1/3 hcg. The theory is that lower dosages will give the benefits of both with minimal e2 increase. If you do research long term serms are not advised, Dr John and Shippen do not use them because there are no long term studies done.

Any Dr in right mind is not going to be the first one to find out. When it comes time to concieve then you go on clomid. One guy here got his wife pregno with in 2 weeks on 25 mgs a day. I can see aromasin having it place in TRT as it has many benefits over adex, but insurance will not cover it.

15

My insurance covers it. It covers everything you dont know everyones individual plan. Even it it didn’t who cares if it worked pay for it. The only thing that ever caused problems was the Adex. Its doesn’t hurt to try. What you had me doing for almost a year now still isnt working. The problem is nobody listens to what the patient says is going on. You state everyone is different and needs different treatment. Well lets do something different.

16

[quote]oscar31280 wrote:
My insurance covers it. It covers everything you dont know everyones individual plan. Even it it didn’t who cares if it worked pay for it. The only thing that ever caused problems was the Adex. Its doesn’t hurt to try. What you had me doing for almost a year now still isnt working. The problem is nobody listens to what the patient says is going on. You state everyone is different and needs different treatment. Well lets do something different. [/quote]

If that is true then lets run with it…I have actually known aromasin out weights benefits to risk ratio when it comes to adex for years. It was just the mainstream medicine that was preventiing this due to insurance we encountered only covered adex which was like pulling teeth to get.
I will present this to Dr O tomorrow and notify him that its easier on the liver, does not affect lipids, and will not lower igf-1 like adex does. He will then see the difference and it will be a no brainer. I would switch all other guys over in a heart beat if insurance would wake up and get on board. Estrogen I think is just part of the problem and the other is chemistry with in the brain.