[quote]BradTGIF wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
dude ive never seen a jacked WR in my life.
well dude, umm… David Boston maybe?
[/quote]
Was thinking the same thing. But he was on the sauce.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Affliction wrote:
Also, I will say, that when I transferred to a I-AA school, there was a greater incidence of steroids. The guys at the top of the college game DO NOT NEED THEM.
It’s the guys who are on the bubble with the odds stacked against them coming from smaller, unheralded schools that are looking for their edge.
Also, as a rule of thumb, the closer in proximity a player plays to the line-of-scrimmage, the more likelihood that they use steroids. I’m sure this is obvious to most.
But for the people that think DB’s/WR’s are injecting like mad, LOL, c’mon.
dude ive never seen a jacked WR in my life. [/quote]
Google “David Boston”
The exception to the rule for sure, and no im not saying that i think there are lots - or even very many at all - WRs on steroids. But ‘never’ is a strong word.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
[/quote]
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
TO is a pretty decently sized guy as well, by WR standards for sure. Completely aside from the steroid discussion.
[quote]TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
[/quote]
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
[/quote]
…that’s because most of the country already believes that ANY visible amount of muscle mass at all requires steroids. Therefore, they assume most of them are on anyway…and yes, that is a double standard.
In football, they want to see the biggest and strongest fuck each other up on the field. That sport would lose money like nothing else if suddenly most weighed under 200lbs with the heaviest lineman coming in at a monstrous 220.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
…that’s because most of the country already believes that ANY visible amount of muscle mass at all requires steroids. Therefore, they assume most of them are on anyway…and yes, that is a double standard.
In football, they want to see the biggest and strongest fuck each other up on the field. That sport would lose money like nothing else if suddenly most weighed under 220lbs with lineman coming in at a monstrous 230.[/quote]
True that, but there has been a definite “slimming” since the 90’s.
Linebackers back then were Clydesdales in comparison, dudes like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Romanowski, etc.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
…that’s because most of the country already believes that ANY visible amount of muscle mass at all requires steroids. Therefore, they assume most of them are on anyway…and yes, that is a double standard.
In football, they want to see the biggest and strongest fuck each other up on the field. That sport would lose money like nothing else if suddenly most weighed under 220lbs with lineman coming in at a monstrous 230.[/quote]
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players. Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Baseball players, on the other hand, have their faces exposed throughout the entire game. Coupled with the slow pace of the game and the close-ups of players on the field and in the dugout that the cameramen are constantly filming inbetween pitches, the fans do make a ‘meaningful’ psychological connection to the players.
The idea is that when an MLB player get caught using steroids, the fans feel more hurt and upset because for some odd reason they feel a deeper personal connection to the MLB player. Almost like a feeling of betrayal.
I think the double standard also has alot to do with the disparity of aggressiveness and physicality between the two sports. Football is a fierce, intense man’s game that alot of NFL players liken to ‘going to war.’ Fans arent shocked when they hear about NFL players on the juice, and they almost feel like its expected.
Baseball is America’s game and it’s held in a much higher regard and has a much more storied history.
Finally, when NFL players get caught using steroids, they don’t deny it. They admit it, acknowledge it, and everyone moves on. Merriman is an excellent example.
When MLB players get caught, they hold press conferences to deny accusations and profess their innocence. They go to capital hill and lie to congress. Then the people on ESPN talk about it for months and it never ends.
[quote]BradTGIF wrote:
Professor X wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
…that’s because most of the country already believes that ANY visible amount of muscle mass at all requires steroids. Therefore, they assume most of them are on anyway…and yes, that is a double standard.
In football, they want to see the biggest and strongest fuck each other up on the field. That sport would lose money like nothing else if suddenly most weighed under 220lbs with lineman coming in at a monstrous 230.
True that, but there has been a definite “slimming” since the 90’s.
Linebackers back then were Clydesdales in comparison, dudes like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Romanowski, etc.[/quote]
Dude, I don?t know about that…you are saying that players in the NFL today are less freaky than the 90’s…really?
Seen Terrell Suggs lately? 6-3 265 crazy athlete…Richard Seymour 6-6 300 and runs like a linebacker. And those are just off the top of my head?..Bo Jackson would have to hit the gym to keep up with these cats (Bo notoriously never lifted weights)
The freak factor has gone waaay up. I would attest that to much better nutrition and weight programs than even a decade earlier. But advances in chemicals cannot be taken out of the equation.
As a caveat I truly believe that most of the stuff that players use is for recovery purposes…the stuff that they put their bodies through during the season is inhuman.
[quote]Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players. Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Baseball players, on the other hand, have their faces exposed throughout the entire game. Coupled with the slow pace of the game and the close-ups of players on the field and in the dugout that the cameramen are constantly filming inbetween pitches, the fans do make a ‘meaningful’ psychological connection to the players.
The idea is that when an MLB player get caught using steroids, the fans feel more hurt and upset because for some odd reason they feel a deeper personal connection to the MLB player. Almost like a feeling of betrayal.
I think the double standard also has alot to do with the disparity of aggressiveness and physicality between the two sports. Football is a fierce, intense man’s game that alot of NFL players liken to ‘going to war.’ Fans arent shocked when they hear about NFL players on the juice, and they almost feel like its expected.
Baseball is America’s game and it’s held in a much higher regard and has a much more storied history.
Finally, when NFL players get caught using steroids, they don’t deny it. They admit it, acknowledge it, and everyone moves on. Merriman is an excellent example.
When MLB players get caught, they hold press conferences to deny accusations and profess their innocence. They go to capital hill and lie to congress. Then the people on ESPN talk about it for months and it never ends.[/quote]
I had this discussion with my brother a while back and his take was interesting.
Look at the Commissioners for each. Selig is sneaky and tries to spin issues around and gives a lot of lip service. Goddell doesn’t IMO, he’s pretty straight forward regarding the regs and there aren’t any back channels where a player can deny his guilt once proven guilty.
That, and Palmiero is a douchebag. Period.
[quote]Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players.
Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.[/quote]
Good point. That makes a lot of sense.
Most people probably wouldn’t have been able to pick Merriman out of line up even if they just saw him play so hearing that he got caught would barely register unless in direct context of the game he played in.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players.
Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Good point. That makes a lot of sense.
Most people probably wouldn’t have been able to pick Merriman out of line up even if they just saw him play so hearing that he got caught would barely register unless in direct context of the game he played in.[/quote]
Both good points…
I just wonder if the relentless pursuit of MLB by congress whist leaving the NFL alone for the most part stems from the fact that the NFL is clearly the most popular sport in the U.S.
Money talks, especially to a politician.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
BradTGIF wrote:
Professor X wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Sorry to disagree with Affliction, but I also played at smaller D-1 school and I would say that at LEAST 3-40% of our guys were on something.
We were only tested 3-4x a year, getting beyond how uncomfortable it was for some random feller staring at your wedding tackle whilst you piss…many of our guys were only tested 1-2x per year.
Many guys are suspended in the NFL for violating the league’s substance abuse policy…4 games at a time?.. and nobody really seems to give a shit (see: Merriman, Shawn)
If the same thing happened in MLB it would be a 50 game suspension…in college and the NFL it is a wink, wink nudge, nudge deal.
A 4 game suspension in the NFL = 1/4 of the entire season. You also forfeit 25% of your salary. No way that is wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I was referring to the attitude that the media and the general public take to the suspensions.
Merriman tested positive…was suspended 4 games and all the ESPN analysts could talk about was how well rested and ready to go he was going to be when he got back.
If this had happened in MLB (say to…ARod) or in the NBA (to oh…Lebron) can you imagine the outrage and anger that would come from the national press?
There is a serious double standard with football, I have nothing against it…just sayin’
…that’s because most of the country already believes that ANY visible amount of muscle mass at all requires steroids. Therefore, they assume most of them are on anyway…and yes, that is a double standard.
In football, they want to see the biggest and strongest fuck each other up on the field. That sport would lose money like nothing else if suddenly most weighed under 220lbs with lineman coming in at a monstrous 230.
True that, but there has been a definite “slimming” since the 90’s.
Linebackers back then were Clydesdales in comparison, dudes like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Romanowski, etc.
Dude, I don?t know about that…you are saying that players in the NFL today are less freaky than the 90’s…really?
Seen Terrell Suggs lately? 6-3 265 crazy athlete…Richard Seymour 6-6 300 and runs like a linebacker. And those are just off the top of my head?..Bo Jackson would have to hit the gym to keep up with these cats (Bo notoriously never lifted weights)
The freak factor has gone waaay up. I would attest that to much better nutrition and weight programs than even a decade earlier. But advances in chemicals cannot be taken out of the equation.
As a caveat I truly believe that most of the stuff that players use is for recovery purposes…the stuff that they put their bodies through during the season is inhuman.
[/quote]
You can basically point to any and every LB and DE in the league and say “freak” without any hesitation; go take a run down of the pro-bowl rosters.
I would never say that we could just run down and name names, but there are some CARTOONS out on that field nowadays, and it would be naive to think none of them are partaking, even skill position dudes(turns out you can get quick/fast/etc if you can train more often).
There’s a lot of other factors involved, training, nutrition, and just better ability to recruit people that in the past might not have gotten their shot, but juice is probably one of them too.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players.
Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Good point. That makes a lot of sense.
Most people probably wouldn’t have been able to pick Merriman out of line up even if they just saw him play so hearing that he got caught would barely register unless in direct context of the game he played in.
Both good points…
I just wonder if the relentless pursuit of MLB by congress whist leaving the NFL alone for the most part stems from the fact that the NFL is clearly the most popular sport in the U.S.
Money talks, especially to a politician.[/quote]
The NFL has had in season and off season drug testing programs in place since at least 1990. It took a firestorm to require the MLB to actually realize that drug testing was necessary a few years ago. Plus, MLB has an anti-trust exemption, which Congress at times uses as a bludgeon against MLB.
The MLB has handled this poorly from the get go. The NFL always provides a better spin to its problems.
[quote]TJN713 wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players.
Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Good point. That makes a lot of sense.
Most people probably wouldn’t have been able to pick Merriman out of line up even if they just saw him play so hearing that he got caught would barely register unless in direct context of the game he played in.
Both good points…
I just wonder if the relentless pursuit of MLB by congress whist leaving the NFL alone for the most part stems from the fact that the NFL is clearly the most popular sport in the U.S.
Money talks, especially to a politician.
The NFL has had in season and off season drug testing programs in place since at least 1990. It took a firestorm to require the MLB to actually realize that drug testing was necessary a few years ago. Plus, MLB has an anti-trust exemption, which Congress at times uses as a bludgeon against MLB.
The MLB has handled this poorly from the get go. The NFL always provides a better spin to its problems.[/quote]
Exactly. I bet the NFL has far more players (yes, rosters twice as big) who are juicing, but by having a testing program going the largely ignorant public thinks there is no issue.
[quote]BradTGIF wrote:
Well, there are two active San Diego Chargers who were on Steroids and were subsequently caught and disciplined.
Luis Castillo and Shawne Merriman.
Castillo was caught during the NFL combine before he was drafted, and Merriman actually had to serve a 4 game suspension.
It happens, it’s still around. I don’t think it’s anywhere near as prevalent though.
The risk is too high.[/quote]
It’s still prevalent. It wasn’t long ago where a doctor in Carolina was being investigated for the steroids he was supposedly supplying to the Panthers.
Only suspension that ended up coming from that was their punter (forgot his name but he ended up back in Denver after his suspension). Steroid use is there and the league does test. I’ll give the league credit for not needing Congress to tell them they need to test like baseball did…
[quote]Big Aristotle wrote:
I think that the blatant double standard with football and baseball has alot to do with the something Micheal Wilbon called the “helmet phenomenon.”
Its the idea that since football players are constantly wearing full helmets while they play, the fans never really see their faces and don’t make a ‘meaningful’ albeit it non-existant connection with the players.
Besides Peyton, Brady, LT and few other big time players, I wouldn’t be able to look at a picture of the average NFL player’s face and know who they are, and I watch ESPN constantly.
Baseball players, on the other hand, have their faces exposed throughout the entire game. Coupled with the slow pace of the game and the close-ups of players on the field and in the dugout that the cameramen are constantly filming inbetween pitches, the fans do make a ‘meaningful’ psychological connection to the players.
The idea is that when an MLB player get caught using steroids, the fans feel more hurt and upset because for some odd reason they feel a deeper personal connection to the MLB player. Almost like a feeling of betrayal.
I think the double standard also has alot to do with the disparity of aggressiveness and physicality between the two sports. Football is a fierce, intense man’s game that alot of NFL players liken to ‘going to war.’ Fans arent shocked when they hear about NFL players on the juice, and they almost feel like its expected.
Baseball is America’s game and it’s held in a much higher regard and has a much more storied history.
Finally, when NFL players get caught using steroids, they don’t deny it. They admit it, acknowledge it, and everyone moves on. Merriman is an excellent example.
When MLB players get caught, they hold press conferences to deny accusations and profess their innocence. They go to capital hill and lie to congress. Then the people on ESPN talk about it for months and it never ends.[/quote]
I agree with this.
Another reason why so many people go crazy over steroids in baseball is because stats mean more to baseball than to football. That isn’t a dig at a football player’s accomplishments.
In baseball the only thing that matters (besides winning a championship) is putting up good numbers so you can be compared to players from 50-75 years ago. It is harder to compare football stats of today to football stats from 40 years ago because the rules of football change so often. The rules in baseball never change (except for the lowering of the mound).
People flip out over Bonds because you can’t hold his numbers to the same standard as Ruth and Aaron. The ‘steroid era’ in the MLB has effectively changed the criteria for the hall of fame. Someone with Thome’s numbers would be in the Hall with 97% of the vote if he played his career prior to 1990.
Now he needs to hit 650 homers before he’ll get in on the 3rd or 4th try if he’s lucky (just my opinion of course).
In the NFL offensive stats have become terribly inflated because of all the rule changes that benefit the offense. The hash marks have been moved closer together so the ball can constantly be in the middle of the field. That makes passing easier. Field goal posts moved to back of the end zone so more passing touchdowns can happen. There are lot more also.
Basically my point is that steroids wont ruin the history of football because the rule changes are constantly changing the game anyway. Steroids in baseball changed the game the same way the pro-offense rule changes changed football.
EDIT
Yes I am aware of the irony that I am wearing a Giambi jersey in my avatar. BUT it is now a Teixeira jersey so don’t worry about that lol.
Check out one of the new entries in Chris Cooley’s new blog. He says he gets tested a minimum of 15 times per year. That might be slight exaggeration, but he seems to suggest it’s fairly frequent. Also, I would assume these tests aren’t all for just steroids.
Anyway, the whole entry is about “piss testing,” so it’s a funny read.
they are all clean
[quote]Affliction wrote:
JamFly wrote:
Seriously you guys should read more back articles on T-Nation.
God, I can’t imagine it was THAT lax just a few years before I went through. I feel like that article falls somewhere between significant hyperbole and pure fucking fantasy. 6’7, 330lb. defensive end with abs? Coaches encouraging steroid use? Not a chance in hell. [/quote]
When Mario Williams was coming out of NC State he was 6’7" 300+, shredded and ran like a 4.5 40 so I wouldn’t say no chance in hell.
the texans list him as 6’7" 291 now.