Steroid Forum Poll

Pharma / TRT
1

Question: Do you use steroids to

  1. ASSIST your natural genetics in pursuit of physique and training goals

or

  1. MAXIMIZE your natural genetic potential

There IS a difference.

I realize this is a loaded question…one that can potentially lead to philosophical arguments…but that is what good forums are for; educated disussion.

Those who use(d) minimum amounts of anabolics (like me) I believe use anabolics to assist their training/physique enhancement journey. This includes “supplemental” use of anabolics where steroids are used infrequently and for the purpose of dealing with intermittent training ruts caused by overtraining, etc. This is NOT a better way of using steroids…not at all. It is simply a choice.

Those whose goal is to see just how big and strong they can possible get are those in the 2nd category. Their goal is to use enough anabolics to get the maximum effect while minimizing any negatives. Negatives ARE expected however, but within an individual’s tolerance. These folks believe it is worthless to go on any cycle unless it elicits real dramatic results. These good folks believe anything less than 500 mg test is a waste of time…the philosoophy also believes any oral cycle really useless. Like the 1st philsophy, this is not a better of using steroids either…just another choice.

As I peruse the advice (many are GREAT advice…especially from vets who have remained on the board) given on these boards, I’m noting alot more of the 2nd philosophy. So that made me curious…anyone out there even think about steroids these days with the 1st philosophy in mind?

This is just a question. But one that I believe is important when reviewing any type of advice, etc. Everyone’s goals are different…everyone’s comfort level with getting to that goal is also different. It would be great I think if posters would indicate what approach they are comfortable with. Not everyone who posts questions is looking for competitive bodybuilder results…and the advice for these folks shouldn’t be the same advice for the individual who DOES want to get to the higher levels. To counter, not everyone is looking for just “assistance” either…they want to see how far they can go.

3

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Those whose goal is to see just how big and strong they can possible get are those in the 2nd category. Their goal is to use enough anabolics to get the maximum effect while minimizing any negatives. Negatives ARE expected however, but within an individual’s tolerance. These folks believe it is worthless to go on any cycle unless it elicits real dramatic results. These good folks believe anything less than 500 mg test is a waste of time…the philosoophy also believes any oral cycle really useless. Like the 1st philsophy, this is not a better of using steroids either…just another choice.

[/quote]
So you are in the first category, yet you claim to know how people in the second category think?

Not my idea of debate, sorry.

BBB[/quote]

sigh
No, this was not my intent at all…but I definitely can see how my words could be construed that way.
I was simply trying (and failing, obviously) to pick one possible example of the 2nd category to contrast with the 1st, but I didn’t make that quite clear. I did try to indicate that I believe there are simply no wrong choices with either.

4

I think I understand what you’re getting at. There is nothing wrong with the assistance approach…different people, different goals, different ideas of risk vs. reward. Even though I am category 2, I am able to grasp that concept. I whole heartedly agree with you that oral only is not a waste of time whatsoever. Let the broism sheep perpetuate that myth all day, while in reality it is possible to make quality gains and keep them if you approach it properly from a training, diet, drug slection, and above all a proper mindset when considering goals vs results. Anyone who took the original MAG-10, or some 4-AD-EC was doing an oral only cycle, and there were some decent results to be had by both. It is not ideal for category 2 guys, but is perfect for category 1 guys.

5

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
I think I understand what you’re getting at. There is nothing wrong with the assistance approach…different people, different goals, different ideas of risk vs. reward. Even though I am category 2, I am able to grasp that concept. I whole heartedly agree with you that oral only is not a waste of time whatsoever. Let the broism sheep perpetuate that myth all day, while in reality it is possible to make quality gains and keep them if you approach it properly from a training, diet, drug slection, and above all a proper mindset when considering goals vs results. Anyone who took the original MAG-10, or some 4-AD-EC was doing an oral only cycle, and there were some decent results to be had by both. It is not ideal for category 2 guys, but is perfect for category 1 guys. [/quote]

Juice…you hit it on the money. This is what I was trying to get at. Just wanted to see how many are category 1 or 2, and perhaps some reasons and opinions. Thanks for your response!

Based upon your response though with regards to oral only, I can see where BBB got the impression that I was indicating all cat. 2 folks think this way…no, not what I meant. But perhaps my own opinion creeped in there…because like you, I also think some oral cycles or strategic use of orals can be of tremendous value to those in cat. 1.

6

Buff or BBB i have a couple questions i would like to run by you guys that i dont really want to post in the any of the forums. I was wondering if you could email me as my PMs are broke. My email should be in my hub.

Also this is a very intersting thread. i love lurking in this forum

8

I use steroids because my genetics are crap, and because my endocrine system is damaged from my first few cycles, so perpetual use is now a necessity. I am trying to/working towards getting bigger and stronger (which isn’t that big or strong by the standards on this board) so maybe I am in the second category.

If you use steroids to maximize your genetic potential, then are you really maximizing your genetic potential? Isn’t the point of AAS use to take you beyond the levels of strength and muscular development which your genetics/ natural test levels permit?

Like if I could be like I am now without AAS then I wouldn’t take them. If I could just come off, retain all my gains and not use again (so long as my libido functioned normally) I most certainly would; but I am a PCT crash and burner, I’m confident I’d lose 30LB in a couple of weeks if I came off completely. I MAY be able to prevent some of that epic loss if I did 6 months of HGH which can help cement gains, but I’ll just do HRT blast and cruise for now.

9

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Those whose goal is to see just how big and strong they can possible get are those in the 2nd category. Their goal is to use enough anabolics to get the maximum effect while minimizing any negatives. Negatives ARE expected however, but within an individual’s tolerance. These folks believe it is worthless to go on any cycle unless it elicits real dramatic results. These good folks believe anything less than 500 mg test is a waste of time…the philosoophy also believes any oral cycle really useless. Like the 1st philsophy, this is not a better of using steroids either…just another choice.

[/quote]
So you are in the first category, yet you claim to know how people in the second category think?

Not my idea of debate, sorry.

BBB[/quote]

sigh
No, this was not my intent at all…but I definitely can see how my words could be construed that way.
I was simply trying (and failing, obviously) to pick one possible example of the 2nd category to contrast with the 1st, but I didn’t make that quite clear. I did try to indicate that I believe there are simply no wrong choices with either.
[/quote]
Maybr I was feeling a bit tetchy when i replied, but at least I did reply, rather than just thinking 'Harumph!" and ignoring you :slight_smile:

It’s nice that you thought to instigate a debate, but really I can’t think of too many posters here that sit squarely in one camp or the other. Usually there is a lot of crossover and even when we say ‘oral cycles are a waste’ it’s primarily to show a noob that they might want to rethink things/step away from a certain mindset.

BBB[/quote]

BBB, you are one of the most respected members on all the T-Nation boards…so when I get what could be interpreted as a negative reaction from you, something HAD to be wrong! And it HAD to be the way the original post was written.

I think you’re right…many are probably both. And I do understand your comment with regards to fresh steroid users and orals…however, I do think there are some oral only protocols that would be satisfactory for some “noobs”. It all depends on the goals. Of course, if the goal of the noob is to be at competitive bodybuilding size from oral only, etc…it isn’t going to happen.

But…if the noob is really a category 1 person, who had done their research properly and who only wants to use steroids like medicine…i.e. to overcome some physical ailment like overtraining, adrenal fatigue, excessive soreness…then such low or temporaty usage CAN help get the body back on track without negatively effecting the body’s natural system that much, if at all. This person could return to training faster, which would help him/her attain goals faster.

This is something I had done before I stopped using anabolics outright (but this does NOT mean I am not going to use again in the future…perhaps very very near future). I was actually very pleased with this style of usage, but it in no way gave results comparable to real cycles.

10

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I use steroids because my genetics are crap, and because my endocrine system is damaged from my first few cycles, so perpetual use is now a necessity. I am trying to/working towards getting bigger and stronger (which isn’t that big or strong by the standards on this board) so maybe I am in the second category.

If you use steroids to maximize your genetic potential, then are you really maximizing your genetic potential? Isn’t the point of AAS use to take you beyond the levels of strength and muscular development which your genetics/ natural test levels permit?

Like if I could be like I am now without AAS then I wouldn’t take them. If I could just come off, retain all my gains and not use again (so long as my libido functioned normally) I most certainly would; but I am a PCT crash and burner, I’m confident I’d lose 30LB in a couple of weeks if I came off completely. I MAY be able to prevent some of that epic loss if I did 6 months of HGH which can help cement gains, but I’ll just do HRT blast and cruise for now.

[/quote]

Great points here. Yes, I personally think that if you use steroids in category 1 to try to maximize your “potential”, that you would be going beyond the natural point. But it is a point that potentially can be “maintained” better once an individual goes off I believe based upon my own experience.

I “tried” to be category 2 at one time…but my blood markers simply indicated there was a negative benefit to risk ratio with my physiology that made me chicken to continue.

11

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Buff or BBB i have a couple questions i would like to run by you guys that i dont really want to post in the any of the forums. I was wondering if you could email me as my PMs are broke. My email should be in my hub.

Also this is a very intersting thread. i love lurking in this forum[/quote]

Interesting how so many people’s PMs are broken on this site. BBB and you are not the only ones who have indicated to me that the PMs are not working. I’ll e-mail you sometime soon, and you can respond back. But keep in mind, I can only give you a recollection of my own experiences…nothing more. Anything else would be pure speculation on my part.

12

idk if this makes sense… here goes

i think i had mild social physic anxiety previously. undiagnosed, I’m just speculating. anyways, they talked me into playing football, and i loved playing and training instantly. and I’m now, much bigger and stronger. people say they can tell i train, and i am much stronger than the “average” individual. but i haven’t felt like it ever, i don’t get aggressive or cocky or dominant… and i think that holds back my training. i also don’t think i have low T i think its my mind holding those things back. I’m attracted to the type one category because i think that a short cycle will put that attitude into my system and i can keep the memory of being dominant. and being able to access that mind frame more readily will boost my abilities tremendously long term after the cycle.

sorry if i expressed this poorly, but this is the first time I’ve ever talked about it like this. any suggestions, criticisms etc?

14

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I use steroids because my genetics are crap, and because my endocrine system is damaged from my first few cycles, so perpetual use is now a necessity. I am trying to/working towards getting bigger and stronger (which isn’t that big or strong by the standards on this board) so maybe I am in the second category.

If you use steroids to maximize your genetic potential, then are you really maximizing your genetic potential? Isn’t the point of AAS use to take you beyond the levels of strength and muscular development which your genetics/ natural test levels permit?

Like if I could be like I am now without AAS then I wouldn’t take them. If I could just come off, retain all my gains and not use again (so long as my libido functioned normally) I most certainly would; but I am a PCT crash and burner, I’m confident I’d lose 30LB in a couple of weeks if I came off completely. I MAY be able to prevent some of that epic loss if I did 6 months of HGH which can help cement gains, but I’ll just do HRT blast and cruise for now.

[/quote]

Great points here. Yes, I personally think that if you use steroids in category 1 to try to maximize your “potential”, that you would be going beyond the natural point. But it is a point that potentially can be “maintained” better once an individual goes off I believe based upon my own experience.

I “tried” to be category 2 at one time…but my blood markers simply indicated there was a negative benefit to risk ratio with my physiology that made me chicken to continue. [/quote]

My experience is quite different in respect to maintaining gains when ‘off’. As I mentioned I am a PCT crash and burner. I would literally go back to square one with a tanked libido!

Maintaining my gains on circa 200mg Test a week is a different story. I am planning a 20 week (well overdue!) cruise in about 9 weeks, so I’ll see how well I do at hanging on to what I have and what I hopefully gain over the next 9 weeks.

I don’t think its ‘chicken’ to opt not to take unnecessary risks with your health; if I thought my health was at risk I would drop to a HRT dose immediately. I’m also planning on making some decent gains after my cruise once my androgen receptors have had a chance to re sensitize.

15

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]maraudersfball wrote:
idk if this makes sense… here goes

i think i had mild social physic anxiety previously. undiagnosed, I’m just speculating. anyways, they talked me into playing football, and i loved playing and training instantly. and I’m now, much bigger and stronger. people say they can tell i train, and i am much stronger than the “average” individual. but i haven’t felt like it ever, i don’t get aggressive or cocky or dominant… and i think that holds back my training. i also don’t think i have low T i think its my mind holding those things back. I’m attracted to the type one category because i think that a short cycle will put that attitude into my system and i can keep the memory of being dominant. and being able to access that mind frame more readily will boost my abilities tremendously long term after the cycle.

sorry if i expressed this poorly, but this is the first time I’ve ever talked about it like this. any suggestions, criticisms etc? [/quote]

Perhaps, like me, you merely had (in my own opinion/diagnosis) an overactive adrenal and cortisol response (either high secretion or high reaction level) that would keep you on the border of ‘fight or flight’ most of every day, and that the addition of AAS, with their ability to suppress cortisol simply turned you into a more ‘normal’ person. This is why I will always use at least a TRT dose of test for the rest of my life. I like being chilled and confident, not highly strung and neurotic :slight_smile:

The recent article on ‘how to tune the nervous system’ touches on what I’m speaking about. The author says ‘don’t let your SNS idle’ by which he means be in a constant state of low activation. I totally agree, but for some of us, it simply cannot be switched off with out aid.

BBB[/quote]

i did not clarify, I’ve never done a cycle, this is just why i would be interested in one. i read the 12 tips for nervous system article and found it very interesting, and have even tried some of the breathing tips, which seem to help calm me down but only short term

16

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I use steroids because my genetics are crap, and because my endocrine system is damaged from my first few cycles, so perpetual use is now a necessity. I am trying to/working towards getting bigger and stronger (which isn’t that big or strong by the standards on this board) so maybe I am in the second category.

If you use steroids to maximize your genetic potential, then are you really maximizing your genetic potential? Isn’t the point of AAS use to take you beyond the levels of strength and muscular development which your genetics/ natural test levels permit?

Like if I could be like I am now without AAS then I wouldn’t take them. If I could just come off, retain all my gains and not use again (so long as my libido functioned normally) I most certainly would; but I am a PCT crash and burner, I’m confident I’d lose 30LB in a couple of weeks if I came off completely. I MAY be able to prevent some of that epic loss if I did 6 months of HGH which can help cement gains, but I’ll just do HRT blast and cruise for now.

[/quote]

Great points here. Yes, I personally think that if you use steroids in category 1 to try to maximize your “potential”, that you would be going beyond the natural point. But it is a point that potentially can be “maintained” better once an individual goes off I believe based upon my own experience.

I “tried” to be category 2 at one time…but my blood markers simply indicated there was a negative benefit to risk ratio with my physiology that made me chicken to continue. [/quote]

My experience is quite different in respect to maintaining gains when ‘off’. As I mentioned I am a PCT crash and burner. I would literally go back to square one with a tanked libido!

Maintaining my gains on circa 200mg Test a week is a different story. I am planning a 20 week (well overdue!) cruise in about 9 weeks, so I’ll see how well I do at hanging on to what I have and what I hopefully gain over the next 9 weeks.

I don’t think its ‘chicken’ to opt not to take unnecessary risks with your health; if I thought my health was at risk I would drop to a HRT dose immediately. I’m also planning on making some decent gains after my cruise once my androgen receptors have had a chance to re sensitize.
[/quote]

Have you considered, or tried, adding in peptides and/or GH? It’s pretty beneficial during off periods or cruises for retaining mass/strength. As for cruising, I usually cruise at HRT doses with HCG and some GHRP/GRF or GH, and eventually the addition of clomid while I taper down the test to zero. If I feel decent with no exogenous stuff in me, then I continue with clomid and peptides for a time before going back on. I was actually off for about a year after some long term use, and the first month or two was crap (but not a total crash), but eventually I felt better and better (and i did get bloodwork twice). I hate off periods, but I like having a cleanse and hopefully some restoration of natural function 2-3 times a year to remind my body it can still work on its own. I’m just curious as to what your experiences have been, since I, like quite a few others, am a long term on less time off guy, and like many others have experienced the difficulty that recovering can present when deciding to come off…although I’ve found a method that works satisfactorily for me.