State of the Union

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

Hmm, this probably explains Bush’s flip flop on Mideast oil… Bush was reminded who is buttering his bread:

“Opec issues warning on Bush oil pledge”

"The Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries on Wednesday warned that President George W. Bush?s proposal to reduce US dependence on Middle Eastern oil could badly jeopardise needed investment in Gulf oil production and refining capacity…

Privately, Opec officials were more direct in warnings about Mr Bush?s declared intention to reduce America?s dependence on Middle East oil by 75 per cent by 2025. But they emphasised Opec would avoid a confrontational tone in its commentary."

62

[quote]hspder wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
The loopholes closing is key. Why then wouldn’t you, or would you, just consider a flat tax rate. Or would there be gradations and classes like now?

A flat tax rate has a fundamental problem, which is that it ignores is the almost fixed cost of living. Both the upper and the lower extremes of income are far beyond reasonable costs of living – meaning that there are people that just don’t make enough money to live in any conditions worthy of a developed country – i.e., they simply cannot afford to pay any kind of income tax – and, on the other hand, there are people that make much more money than they are able to spend reasonably in several lifetimes.

Before you say it, I already know the right severely dislikes the idea of using taxes to normalize incomes, but the fact remains that History tells us that if you do not do something to increase the size of the middle class – even if it means putting the large majority of the tax burden on the rich – society will fall into disarray.

The rich can afford to carry a high burden of taxes, the poor cannot. Simple as that.

I’m not saying it is fair – but I do believe that it is absolutely necessary for a society to function and keep functioning in the long run.

Having said all that, theoretically there is a way to have a flat tax rate and still pull people into the middle class, that for some reason the populist right seems to be less allergic to: to heavily subsidize essentials like housing and health costs for the poor, basically allowing them to afford paying taxes.

Unfortunately, experience has proven that strategy creates a bunch of problems in itself and is close to unmanageable. I believe it’s better not to charge taxes to the poor than to collect them and then essentially return them in the form of subsidies.
[/quote]

Nice post.

I believe quite strongly that the wealthy should bear more of a burden. Why create programs, and spend money, to give back money in the form of subsidies to those you’ve taxed ‘for no reason’. That’s a great idea.

Thanks for your input. I’m glad I asked.

63

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
But with a tweak to the pay in and a tweak to the pay out, I think those that need themost should be able to use the system as it was intended. That does infer some personal responsibility for ones own financial affairs along the way.

I don’t think it should be presumed that this is a golden nestegg awaiting your golden years.[/quote]

I emphatically agree, far too many people have become far too dependent upon the system.

64

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Cutting social security? He’d love to get rid of it, which I am firmly against. Medicare? Medicaid?

Don’t talk to me about all this shit when we are financing an unnecessary war where billions upon billions are being spent. Free the Iraqis? Rather than put the money back into social security? Isn’t money that is put into social security put back into the economy by seniors anyway?

Maybe he should’ve thought of all this shit before he ran the debt up with tax cuts and foriegn wars.

How much has this war cost us now, by the way? I mean, besides the lives of many of our own people who should be honored for their sacrifice.

How many lives has it saved, including the people Sadam would have killed for various reasons? How many more will it save by the spread of democracy throughout that region.

The glass is half full!

I agree 100%

The status quo of the middle east was in the best interests of nobody.

Did either of you two cheerleaders answer the question? I asked how much it cost, not for your opinion of whether it was needed. I could have written that opinion for you without your input. It isn’t like you all are unpredictable.[/quote]

Prof,

You’re gonna jump all over my shit just because I didn’t answer your Question verbatim in my response to Zeb?

Fuck off

Guess what hot shot, this is an open forum and if my opinions piss you off, or you think they are predictible, that’s too fucking bad. Put down your purse, grab a tissue out of it, and dry your damn eyes.

Maybe you were too stupid to look it up yourself, or maybe you were implying that the costs outweigh the benefits of this war. I’m pretty sure it was the latter, but whatever. As a curtesy to your inflated ego, you can find the running total here:

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

Grow up.

65

[quote]I’ve offered my idea already for ‘tweaking’ Unlike you who tries, and fails, to simply jam up what other people say instead of offering up any real discussion. I don’t think it is so out of whack that it should have been Bush’s first choice of things to fix.

Is that better. How about we up and down vote whether you contribute anything of substance. [/quote]

Thankfully, as usual, you always lash out in the wrong direction.

My thought, which is not specifically geared to this program, is that government payments to the public should not be 100% indexed to inflation.

I realize that this sounds horrible, but lets say they are indexed at 95% of inflation. Over time, their drain on the economy will be forced into a manageable size, without anyone getting a huge screwing all at once.

The imporant issue, with important monetary programs, is to ensure that everyone is able to plan accordingly for their future. Such a small rate of adjustment means that over any one generation the adjustment isn’t that big. Besides, new programs and systems can always be put in place to replace retiring ones – such a built in obsolescence would be wise, as things do change over time.

Countries are around for a long time, not many fiscal problems needs to be solved overnight and no solution needs to last forever, as long as the borrowing can at least be put on and kept on a path to fiscal responsibility.

But then, I apparently have no ideas to add to any conversation.

66

Flamer,

Tough day? Sounds like you need a hug buddy.

Ahahahahaa.

67

Stir the pot Vroom!I dig it!

68

Actually, I think the biggest story is the so-called “Democratic Response.” Mr. “Eyebrow Man” didn’t exactly come back with any cogent reply or ideas of how they propose to keep America Safe and our economy going.

Some on this thread as in the media show a typical pattern: throw fire at Bush, but have no ideas of your own on how to solve the problems.

All in all, the Democrats responses in the chamber as well as the response will do the Republicans more good in the upcoming elections than anything else.

69

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
You’re gonna jump all over my shit just because I didn’t answer your Question verbatim in my response to Zeb?

Fuck off

Guess what hot shot, this is an open forum and if my opinions piss you off, or you think they are predictible, that’s too fucking bad. Put down your purse, grab a tissue out of it, and dry your damn eyes.

Maybe you were too stupid to look it up yourself, or maybe you were implying that the costs outweigh the benefits of this war. I’m pretty sure it was the latter, but whatever. As a curtesy to your inflated ego, you can find the running total here:

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

Grow up.
[/quote]

What a fucking hypocrite. You wrote this to reprimand me somehow? I wasn’t supposed to post a certain way? But your post is written to tell me that you CAN post a certain way? WTF? Who really needs the tissues? The only one whining is you.

What is more important than your bitch fest, is the fact that as of tonight, we have spent 238,000,000,000 bucks in Iraq. Holy Crap.

70

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Actually, I think the biggest story is the so-called “Democratic Response.” Mr. “Eyebrow Man” didn’t exactly come back with any cogent reply or ideas of how they propose to keep America Safe and our economy going.[quote]

Are you kidding me? As Lt. Governor under Warner the “eyebrow guy” helped to completely overhaul VA. The previous governor Gilmore(rep) bankrupted the state by eliminating car taxes. A dumb campaign promise. The problem was Gilmore’s tax revenue model was based on the continued improbable growth of other tax revenue sources. Well, with the republican legislature the Warner administration turned the state around. Kaine was part of an extremely efficient governmental unit. I am pretty sure Kaine’s first idea would be running a balanced budget. I believed he proposed securing the borders as a priority in homeland security. Not a bad idea. I am sorry he couldn’t go into deep detail for you in five minutes. Plus, the government’s role in the economy is highly overrated. Basically all the government has to do is avoid creating a negative environment for buisness, ie budget defecits, wars et cetera.

[quote]
Some on this thread as in the media show a typical pattern: throw fire at Bush, but have no ideas of your own on how to solve the problems.[quote]

Why is it that other people have to come up with the solutions to problems created by Bush’s policies? Just what do they have to come up with to surpass Bush’s effectiveness as president? What are his accomplishments? If a guy is driving a car off a cliff, what better suggestion do I need to come up with beyond turn the wheel? Do I need to tell him how to do it? The bottom line is, we in the 50 tangible states are less prepared than ever. FEMA is a joke. All independent studies show we are less prepared than ever for a major terrorist attack. We don’t have any effective border control or security. As far as Iraq goes…from a cost-benefit point of view, we could have just as well attacked any nation and done as much to combat terrorism. Our liberties and the liberties of foreign nationals have been crippled. This boogey man in the closet thing is a joke. How am I to believe that Bush’s leadership is anymore effective in the secret war on terror than in anything else he has done? Is he the rainman of anti-terrorism?

[quote]
All in all, the Democrats responses in the chamber as well as the response will do the Republicans more good in the upcoming elections than anything else.[/quote]

I didn’t realize that winning elections was the end game. I thought it was the beginning of the legislative process. How big a majority do the Republican’s need? Wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t have that second politcal party to slow things down? Democrats were elected by people that may have different opinions from Republicans, as such they must represent their constituents as they deem fit.

71

[quote]ZEB wrote:
The glass is half full![/quote]

With blood, Zeb; with blood.

72

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
You’re gonna jump all over my shit just because I didn’t answer your Question verbatim in my response to Zeb?

Fuck off

Guess what hot shot, this is an open forum and if my opinions piss you off, or you think they are predictible, that’s too fucking bad. Put down your purse, grab a tissue out of it, and dry your damn eyes.

Maybe you were too stupid to look it up yourself, or maybe you were implying that the costs outweigh the benefits of this war. I’m pretty sure it was the latter, but whatever. As a curtesy to your inflated ego, you can find the running total here:

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

Grow up.

What a fucking hypocrite. You wrote this to reprimand me somehow? I wasn’t supposed to post a certain way? But your post is written to tell me that you CAN post a certain way? WTF? Who really needs the tissues? The only one whining is you.

What is more important than your bitch fest, is the fact that as of tonight, we have spent 238,000,000,000 bucks in Iraq. Holy Crap.[/quote]

The Prof said:

How much has this war cost us now, by the way? I mean, besides the lives of many of our own people who should be honored for their sacrifice. ]

Zeb then responded with:

[i]How many lives has it saved, including the people Sadam would have killed for various reasons? How many more will it save by the spread of democracy throughout that region.

The glass is half full! [/i]

I then responded to Zeb with:

[i]I agree 100%

The status quo of the middle east was in the best interests of nobody. [/i]

You then proceded to start “whining” with this:

Did either of you two cheerleaders answer the question? I asked how much it cost, not for your opinion of whether it was needed. I could have written that opinion for you without your input. It isn’t like you all are unpredictable

Now you tell me who started this little whinning fest. I thought Zebs post was decent and didn’t attack you in any way, and I responded to Zebs post in kind. somehow you felt that Zeb and I needed to “toe the line” and answer your question verbatim without offering opinions. You’re actually gonna bitch about opinions in an open forum about politics? You’re a fucking joke.

73

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

You then proceded to start “whining” with this:

Did either of you two cheerleaders answer the question? I asked how much it cost, not for your opinion of whether it was needed. I could have written that opinion for you without your input. It isn’t like you all are unpredictable

Now you tell me who started this little whinning fest. I thought Zebs post was decent and didn’t attack you in any way, and I responded to Zebs post in kind. somehow you felt that Zeb and I needed to “toe the line” and answer your question verbatim without offering opinions. You’re actually gonna bitch about opinions in an open forum about politics? You’re a fucking joke.

[/quote]

Reasking a question is whining? No, complaining about how I post is whining…like you did. Asking you AGAIN what I asked you before is not whining. Now that I have cleared that up for you, will Kleenex do?

What, calling you a cheerleader is now an insult? You are one. Embrace it.

74

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

You then proceded to start “whining” with this:

Did either of you two cheerleaders answer the question? I asked how much it cost, not for your opinion of whether it was needed. I could have written that opinion for you without your input. It isn’t like you all are unpredictable

Now you tell me who started this little whinning fest. I thought Zebs post was decent and didn’t attack you in any way, and I responded to Zebs post in kind. somehow you felt that Zeb and I needed to “toe the line” and answer your question verbatim without offering opinions. You’re actually gonna bitch about opinions in an open forum about politics? You’re a fucking joke.

Reasking a question is whining? No, complaining about how I post is whining…like you did. Asking you AGAIN what I asked you before is not whining. Now that I have cleared that up for you, will Kleenex do?

What, calling your a cheerleader is now an insult? You are one. Embrace it.[/quote]

You are an angry individual who has a hard on for some of the members of this board. Embrace it.

75

[quote]msuchancey wrote:
I say, get some of Abraham Lincoln’s DNA, clone him, and set that ugly fucker loose on America.

That guy got some shit straightened out.

CR

[/quote]

I always enjoy those who wish former Presidents were now in charege. I wonder how many realize how hated Lincoln was when he was alive? There was even talk of impeaching him.

Truman is another President that people wish was still in charge. He had the single lowest popularity rating of any modern day President.

We currently have a President who is unafraid to at least try to do what’s right. None on the left will ever accept that.

Time however will prove him correct in his stance on Iraq.

76

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Did either of you two cheerleaders answer the question? I asked how much it cost, not for your opinion of whether it was needed. I could have written that opinion for you without your input. It isn’t like you all are unpredictable.

Yea…the funny thing about the Internet (as you well know) is that you get to read opinions that you don’t like. Whether you can predict them or not is irrelevant ,(which is similar to most of your political opinions).

As if any one of us couldn’t predict that you would disagree with President Bush on Iraq.

{b] HELLO ANYONE HOME? [/b] (knocking on Prof’s head)

Wake up my man!

You really are a freaking riot. No seriously don’t ever change…

Where have I ever written that there never needed to be a war in Iraq? I haven’t written that. Not once have those words come from my computer. My stance has ALWAYS been that we went in wrong and at the wrong time.[/quote]

And where have I ever written that you stated there should be no war in Iraq?

Look above…go ahead scroll up. I stated: “As if any one of us couldn’t predict that you would disagree with President Bush on Iraq.”

What I was stating was and is correct by your latest admission (see final sentence above).

Everyone knows how you think. You are an open book. Thayt you don’t know this is mildly amusing but not unexpected.

[quote] You know, the war that has still not resulted in the capture of the prime suspect in a mass terrorist murder who apparently is so good at hiding that we can’t even do an airstrike in an attempt to secretly take out the men close to him without detroying so many innocents that we spark even more hatred against us? The question was HOW MUCH HAS IT COST. Is this really that hard to answer? I just want to know.
[/quote]

When did we capture Hitler? Oh that’s right we never did. But nontheless we won. Hey how did that happen? Not because of people like you.

No predictable is exactly what you are! And not just politically. You are very predictable on every single thread you enter.

Hey…there’s worse things than that, don’t worry about it.

77

[quote]ZEB wrote:

When did we capture Hitler? Oh that’s right we never did. But nontheless we won. Hey how did that happen? Not because of people like you.
[/quote]

Not because of people like me? I’m in the military. Are you? I have to think like you to help this country? Do you honestly believe this? The logical conclusion is that you truly believe that anyone who disagrees with Bush on the handling of Iraq is taking away from America’s success? This is bullshit and why so many arguments are sparked. It is the self righteousness held by many claiming to be “conservatives” as if you know better than all and everyone else is a traitor somehow. All of that is implied when you tell someone in the military that Hitler was conquered because of men NOT like me. I am glad you wrote this, however…although I doubt you expected it to slip like that.

Kettle, meet Skillet. You think your opinions are a shock to anyone? I would hope most people know where I stand on many issues because I write it clearly. For me to point out to you that YOU are also read like an open book needs for you to inform me of this? It may be stating the obvious, but it appears as if you thought otherwise.

Either way, this thread isn’t about predictability in responses.

78

It is Iceland that is working on hydrogen, not Greenland, but I’ll forgive the error, since the two countries were discovered by the same viking family (who also discovered America) (naturally that is ignoring the fact that the eskimos and indians discovered those places first)

The energy to get the hydrogen out comes from geothermal. … Iceland is mega rich in free geothermal energy. America probably is as well, Hawaii is very very similar to Iceland (except older and in a tropical zone with no ice).

Hot ground turns water into hydrogen which runs your car nearly for free! clean burning! yay! good idea let’s go with it.

It is a long way off but I think we are headed that way. In the meantime ethanol … which is a much better use of the surplus corn than putting it in every damned thing you could eat.

The USA has a lot of problems looming in my opinion … the rich won’t be taxed more, they run the place. And they will get richer still as they invest in other countries that are booming and neglect the hometown. I don’t like the way the place is heading. At least that is how it looks to me. In my country everyone has healthcare, PERIOD. It is considered your right. I cannot believe that any country could let their citizens not have healthcare.

79

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
So what about the speech?

Now that you’ve gotten your obligatory negative Bush–horrible speaker–blahblahblahbullshit out of the way, anything real to say.

What about the fuel initiatives?
What about permanent tax relief?
What about The effort to scale back the hatred and work together?
What about entitlement spending?

It just seems noone on this board wants to actually talk politics. Talk about potential solutions. It boils down to what party are you, who did you vote for, oh–you must be a frickin’ moron.

No one person or party is going to change the quagmire we are in. We need tough decisions and we need to take a little hit too right this ship. I wish the two parties could find at least 1-2 items they agree on and begin to propose solutions.

Fuel initiative.

I would love to see hydrogen cars by 2010. Is that pie in the sky? Probably, but if we never set some goals, we are surely never going to move forward with any resolve. Hell with coal and that right now. If we cut our automobile (oil) use in 1/2 over the next 4-5 years how much better off would we be. Wouldn’t hurt our
?supposed? global warming either.

I need an economist to step in on the taxes. We are so over taxed I believe we could live with some permanent relief, but what do we then give up. There is enmough pork around to easily lower taxes and not suffer servicewise.

Political partisanship.

Maybe the biggest problem right now. There is no effort to even try and work together. Will the next president be able to bring together the parties or is this the new way. It is so disappointing to hear good solid ideas presented knowing that in no way is anyone really looking to fulfill them.

Let’s go crazy and throw some ideas around. we may not solve anything, but you never know who’s lurking here.

[/quote]

What about the fuel initiatives?

Well, he’s paid lip service to this issue in all of his SOTU speeches. What makes this time any different? If the party in power were serious about this issue, they would’ve passed it 4 years ago. They do have the votes you know.
How far are we going to push this into the future anyway…2010…2020? We needed it 10 years AGO!

Permanent tax relief?

How much more relief can millionaires get any way? Lower taxes, increase spending and cut the deficit in half all at the same time? HAHAHAHA. Is he going to alter the gravitational constant of the universe while he’s at it? Gimme a fucking break.

The effort to scale back hatred?

“I’m going to be a uniter, not a divider.” If I even need to comment on this one for you, you’re a lost cause my friend. Just look around you.

What about entitlement spending?

He already made cuts to the Pell Grant program and veterans’ benefits and wants to cut veterans’ benefits AGAIN. Talk about supporting our troops in any way he can! Although I suppose all those no-bid contracts to Halliburton and all of its subsidiaries have to be paid for somehow.

I try very hard not to reply to posts on this forum anymore because I know that all of Bush’s supporters (or is it cheerleaders?) will never change their beliefs even after this country has been completely destroyed. However, when I see people trying to pat this motherfucker on the back for giving the same speech over and over again (for years), it makes me want to puke. You people think that the sun rises and sets with this guy and that he can do no wrong. Do you not see (yeah, I know its a stretch) that the party of small government and fiscal conservatism has increased the size of government (hello DHS) and given us budget deficits that are out of control? (I know, insert the appropriate 9-11 comment here as an excuse) Or are you really just blind sheep that think and see what the master wants you to? (Never mind, I know the answer to that one) He gets credit for anything (and I mean anything) good that happens and is never held accountable for anything that he’s fucked up. (Just name ONE, since you people wanna lay Katrina solely on the backs of Mayor Nagin and the governor) When exactly will “we’re at war” no longer be an acceptable excuse for everything the president does? I bet I know…when a democrat is in office. When that time comes (even though he or she will be just as big of a fuck-up as Bush) they’ll get blamed for everything under the sun but won’t be allowed any excuses whatsoever. If you’re going to be blind, deaf and ignorant the least you can do is be an equal opportunity blind, deaf and ignorant person.
So, go ahead and tell all of us how smart, free thinking, cultured, worldly, objective and informed you are. You can go on believing that shit all you want. As long as you believe what the master says to believe and you think what he says to think, you’re just deluding yourself. The truth is all over the place if you’re not afraid (that’s the real kicker isn’t it?) to look for it. If you’re truly afraid then just say so. But don’t be a fucking cheerleader who hides behind your supposedly God-fearing master and claim that you love his pretty blue suit. Because this asshole is stark naked.
George Orwell is lying in his grave today saying “Told ya so” while you people do your best impression of a two-legged sheep. Nice. The founding fathers would be proud. Excuse me while I go puke up my breakfast…

80

Hallelujah, Jeff.

I get a kick out of the argument that we have prevented lost lives by invading Iraq. So, if we hadn’t invaded, then the tens of thousands of civilians who have been killed would have perished at the hands of Saddam? Are you kidding me? And if we are so concerned with despotism and lawlessness, why is there still genocide happening in Sudan? Oh yeah, they have no oil (just like North Korea).

Must follow leader…

Anyhow, Big Brother would like to say:

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

WAR IS PEACE