StartingAgain Starts for the Last Time?

Training Logs
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New log now that I can sort of train “normally.” Will be updating very infrequently most likely.

Tl;dr:

  • Have Elhers Danlos
  • Could barely run, lift everyday objects like cups, and sleep without pain for years
  • Have the joints of an 80 year old. Tore both hips from walking lol.
    …

Finished 531 Forever recently and plan is to run the templates for a few years at least and build some basic beginner strength. Will push hard when I can, but it all depends on how the joints are feeling that day.

Main Lifts are: RDL, Squat (High bar, Oly shoes), Standing OHP, Incline Press

PT recommends RDLs over standard deadlift. TMs will be LOW at first since I have practically no experience with barbell bench, barbell OHP, and bilateral squats. Here are the starting TMs versus comparsion lifts I have been doing:

  • Standing OHP: 95 (can rep with 65lbs on seated DB press)
  • Incline Press: 100 (can rep with 70lbs on Incline DB press)
  • Squat: 165 (can rep 200lbs each leg with Bulgarian split squats)
  • RDL: 215 (have done a moderately difficult 225x15 before)

Starting template is:

  • 2 cycles of “Original 531 plus FSL 5x5”
  • 1 cycle of “Original 531” as anchor

Will adjust from there. Due to my uneven shoulders, I’ll probably have to rely on assistance for upper body pushing volume, but we’ll see. My dumbbell pressing has been neutral grip, so pronated grip with barbells feels super awakard right now.

Main goal: Honestly, getting over my joint symptoms. Shit is annoying at best and infuriating at worst. Yes, I can at least get on a normal program now, but it still sucks. However, I can pat myself on the back for my joint progress so far. In 2020, I barely had the strength to touch my toes and get back up… and now, 200lbs is hang power clean weight.

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Hooooooly shit I am sore and tired everywhere and it’s only been my 2nd real session haha.

Honestly, the main lift + supplemental is a breeze. It’s the assistance that’s kicking my ass since I’m not used to 3-5 x 10 on multiple lifts. And the supersetting makes it even worse.

I felt nauseous today from supersetting Incline DB presses and DB Rows due to the high reps and low rest times.

Session went:

Incline Press: OG 531 + FSL 5x5 (3s week)

  • Book says to go 3/5/1 with this template so this is week 1

Push- 90 reps
Pull- 100 reps
Legs/Core- Hip physical therapy moves (no rep count)

  • Gonna do band pull aparts + more hip/core PT moves later tonight

My head hurts and I am HUNGRY. I can’t even imagine how hungry BBB will make me. That said, my muscles feel recovered for tomorrow. It’s more a mental drain. Session was 45 min but felt like 2 hours due to all the volume which is new to me.

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@T3hPwnisher

I have a question. I may have gone too low with my TMs out of fear. Today with 90% I could’ve done 30+ reps probably. While reading 531 Forever I also watched a few podcasts with Wendler and he talked about how he had amazing success with as low as a 50% TM (especially on the deadlift). However, perhaps I might have accidently gone a bit lower than even that.

Do you see this being an issue? Wendler did say in a podcast that generally people with a lower starting TM progress for a lot longer in his experience. However, he didn’t specify how “low” that was.

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If your goal is to run 5/3/1, I don’t see an issue. Low TM just means it’ll be a LONG time until you stall, which is a good thing.

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Perfect! Yup, goal is to use 531 to get bigger and stronger while I continue to work on my Elhers Danlos symptoms.

Thanks for the quick answer! Hopefully in a year or so I can attempt templates like BBB Beefcake and BTM haha. Also want to do Deep Water at least once since you recommend it so much.

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Alrighty, first 2 weeks of 531 done.

  • I am horrible at high reps. Doing 10x5 with 65lbs for seated db press, for example, is easy… but 5x10 with 35lbs feels horrible.

  • I am horrible with higher volume. Doing 5x10 on one exercise is fine, but doing 50 total reps with 4 lifts feels horrible. Even with weights that are killing my ego, the assistance is kicking my ass because I am not used to this at all.

  • My conditioning is horrible. Supersetting anything feels terrible haha.

  • Low TMs are awesome so far. I was half asleep today but still did an easy 16 reps with 90%, and this is as someone who sucks at high reps and am not used to barbell lifts at all. Lots of room to keep progressing for years hopefully.

Note for future:

  • Do the assistance only focused on the rep total and don’t worry about reps/sets. For some reason, I’ve been fixated on 5x10 the last two weeks to hit the rep totals. Just pick an appropriate weight and get the reps in and break up the 50 total depending on the day. Basically, what anyone would do for push ups or other bodyweight moves.

  • Seriously, I’d do this before on bulgarian split squats and it was the simplest thing ever. I’d just pick a weight depending on the day, and get to 50 total as quickly as possible. How the 50 total was broken up was based on feel. But for some reason, I’m stupidly overthinking the assistance by being fixated on a rep/set count.
    …

Alright, rambling over.

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Jesus Christ these past few days have been horrible joint-wise. Skipped yesterday but went today because a shitty session is still better than no session. Besides, Wendler’s recommendation for this week on OG 531 FSL 5x5 is 5s PRO. Meaning there was no real excuse for me skipping other than getting into an accident haha.

So I’ll take me training today as a win. Still did the required reps on the main/supp and then the 50-100 assistance.

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Part 1:

Alrighty, awesome joint news!!! My hips seem to be 90% fine, and the remaining issues are with my shoulder blades. Even with my hips do lock up, it seems to be my tight shoulder blades locking up my whole body and not anything originating from the hips. Basically, hips almost healed, only the shoulder blades are left (and they’re at least 50% healed too).

Last two weeks have the first time I can really use my chest and squeeze it during presses. Can finally do a pronated grip on Incline DB Presses without joint pain/inflammation. @unreal24278 I remember you relating to how EDS makes it difficult to use the chest due to our shoulder instability. But I can finally use it! Pronated grip, keeping the chest up, and using my pecs brought my Incline DB Press down from 75s to 45s-55s, but I couldn’t care less haha. Now to actually build the pecs!

Also about pecs: Short-term goal is to be able to use dips as assistance consistently without joint pain. If I can’t get them to work without pain, I’ll just split them into machine dips and flat db presses for the “push assistance” in 5/3/1. I’d prefer to be able to do them, though, since they’re parts of BBB Beefcake and BTM, which I want to do one day. But if I legitimately can’t do them due to pain, oh well.

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Part 2:

Liking 5/3/1 so far! It was always what I wanted to do once I had to ability to do barbell moves. Once I’m done with the inital 3 cycles to get the hang of the main lifts, it’s time to have some fun! I’m thinking BBB for Squat/RDL, but not on OHP/Incline yet to err on the side of safety for now. If I’m not supersetting, I see no reason why I can’t finish BBB in 10 min or even 5 min if my conditioning doesn’t suck since my TMs are so light.

Due to those light TMs, it’s been a deload so far, which has given me time to try out all sorts of assistance lifts. I’m sort of hell bent on making dips and chins work, even though I still get some joint pain from them unfortunately. But legpresses, leg curls, pushdowns, EZ curls, DB/EZ extensions, etc feel fine. Like I said above, I have flat db presses and machine dips ready if dips become a no-go. And, of course, pulldowns to replace chins. But I don’t want to pussy out on the dips/chins on those 5/3/1 programs haha.

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Ya

Could use my chest, but searing joint pain deep in my shoulders would get in the way UNLESS I used a hammer grip. I dealt with this by pushing through pain until recurrent dislocations led to me tearing my labrum at which point I couldn’t activate my left pec minor at all… After which I continued to push through pain until I couldn’t really use the left arm at all.

Good luck with the chest movements. I was always fine with dips as my mobility/rom was and is ridiculous, but I haven’t tried dips since my shoulder op.

Never doing OHP again either. I had a strong OHP and a decent bench for my size. But as specified… I’d always have pain the next day. Not doms, but joint pain. I’d feel searing pain during the movement, then I’d feel a deep ache bilaterally for 3 days post workout. Interestingly enough, I could never replicate that same sensation of searing pain through boxing, which is in itself hard on the shoulders.

Now that I know my pain from bench/ohp was caused by my shoulder subluxing posteriorly with each repetition… I’ll stay away…

I’m sure my body will wind up trashed, but if that’s the case… I’d rather have my fun doing things I’m passionate about like music… MAYBE martial arts if I can get some control over the amount of pain I feel every day… and I imagine my ‘career’ would be quite short.

I can gain muscle mass through lifts that won’t give me (as many) problems. Instead of OHP I can do landmine press… Instead of barbell bench I can do DB press with hammer grip, floor press… Avoid pullovers with heavy weight, opt for rows, lat pulldowns, chin-ups (wide grip pullups are now iffy). If I CAN gain muscle mass again, I’d rather exclude the lifts that cause and have previously caused serious problems.

The only way to slow deterioration is to walk on eggshells and have no fun… No thanks
If my body is going to deteriorate 3x+ faster than that of a normal person from things like weightlifting, playing guitar (fingers), going on hikes, working (employment) … I’m going to selectively choose activities that I enjoy. I will not waste valuable time deteriorating through building my pecs with bench press when I could eventuate a similar outcome with DB press (hammer grip) and floor press and doing so would still equate to deterioration… but LESS deterioration!

I haven’t fully recovered from hip surgery yet, so squats and deadlifts are still a no go.

Another huge limiting factor I have is pain from ribs that slip out of place. This was far less of an issue when I had more size on me (considering I was able to wrestle at one point). Whether or not the development of SRS was due to further degeneration or loss of muscle mass + lax cartilage allowing for excess movement has yet to be determined.

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Could use my chest, but searing joint pain deep in my shoulders would get in the way UNLESS I used a hammer grip.

I had no choice but to use a hammer grip at first, but the issue is that it’s all triceps/shoulders for me. My chest still grew since I went from 3lbs to 75lbs for reps, but now that I can go pronated, I’d rather restart with that. If I had no choice but to use hammer grip, then obviously I’d be stuck with it haha.

recurrent dislocations led to me tearing my labrum at which point I couldn’t activate my left pec minor at all… After which I continued to push through pain until I couldn’t really use the left arm at all.

Had dislocations and inability to use my left arm (which caused MASSIVE atrophy), but thank god no shoulder labrums tears. I would’ve been so pissed if I needed another surgery. I’m still limited in how much I can fire my left pec, but it’s a drastic improvement.

Interestingly enough, I could never replicate that same sensation of searing pain through boxing, which is in itself hard on the shoulders.

Even light jabs would inflame my left shoulder after a few punches haha. Thankfully the barbell OHP doesn’t seem to bother me that much. Then again, I’m starting super light for a reason. Probably a sub 60% TM. I’m going with Wendler’s approach of using the main lift (OHP) for power and perfect reps and then using assistance (Seated DB Press) for muscle building since it’s safer. I’m hoping that the light TMs make the barbell lifts tolerable for the next 2 years or so, after which I can hopefully do them with a lot more intensity.

Also, any pullover-type motion is HELL on my shoulders haha.

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Curious… Have you had an MR arthrogram. MR athrogram is the golden standard aside from arthroscopy to diagnose labral tears.

Although 3T MRI is reasonably accurate, to seriously rule out a labral tear you need an arthrogram. I’ve had MR arthrogram pick up labral pathology that non contrast MRI missed 2-3 times.

I ask because of this

Unless you are still recovering from shoulder surgery (takes AGES for EDS people to recover), every single time I’ve had this neuromuscular inhibition it has either been due to an injury… and if the issue is chronic it has been due to a labral tear… EVERY SINGLE TIME…

Hard left hooks irritate my shoulder as it will sublax posteriorly. Lots of kicking above hip height irritates SI joint. Wrestling/BJJ never gave me the same issues, probably because I only trained grappling 2-3x per week whereas when I was really into it… training striking 6x/wk, sometimes 2x/day wasn’t out of the question.

Over time, my body could tolerate less and less as EDS is degenerative… I trained through an extraordinary amount of pain/damage. I’m hoping I can gain some strength and muscle mass again. Enough to facilitate perhaps another 5ish years of being active. I intend to retire from physical activity aside from resistance training and physiotherapy after the age of thirty.

Although for all I know, perhaps I’m already retired. I haven’t been able to do much of anything for 12 months now.

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Had quite a few dislocations with heavy pullovers.

This would usually entail me screaming “FUCK”

  • drop the weight
  • Try get things to settle.
  • If arm is numb/seriously painful go home, if not continue training

I know better now

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Curious… Have you had an MR arthrogram. MR athrogram is the golden standard aside from arthroscopy to diagnose labral tears.

I had an MRI that ruled out a labrum tear. Before that, I also was injected with some solution into the shoulder, but I forgot if it was during the MRI or a little before that for an X-ray. It was in 2016-2017, so I forgot.

Unless you are still recovering from shoulder surgery (takes AGES for EDS people to recover), every single time I’ve had this neuromuscular inhibition it has either been due to an injury… and if the issue is chronic it has been due to a labral tear… EVERY SINGLE TIME…

To clarify, I can fire it without weight, but have to be conscious of how hard I do so because too much adduction will cause a click in my left shoulder at best, and inflammation at worst. So I wouldn’t say it’s an inhibition to actually it if I want to. Sorry for the confusion.

External rotation, band pull aparts, and similar stuff does make a sudden and big improvement, though.

I intend to retire from physical activity aside from resistance training and physiotherapy after the age of thirty.

I feel like EDS gave me the opposite view. I never got to enjoy any sort of physical prime. So now at 28, I sorta feel like a 16 year old whose prime is about to start. I can certainly do A LOT more than I could at 20. If we’re born old, then retiring doesn’t make much sense, right? :rofl:

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MR arthrogram is where they take an X-ray and with X ray guidance inject gadolinium into shoulder joint

Then you get the MRI.

Sounds like that’s what you had.

MRA is commonly used to rule out labral tears in the states. It’s the correct approach

In Aus it’s usually a non contrast MRI and that’s it UNLESS you have really bad MDI/shoulder instability. If this is the case and you have a very good suregon, they’ll order MRA here

Have you ever had shoulder surgery?

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Do you find a lot of your joints are crepitus ridden? Perhaps since early childhood by chance

Like Bob would crack his knuckles in class and you’d respond by cracking your knuckles, wrist, neck, spine, knees, feet, SI joints, shoulders, jaw etc.

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I also had issues in my adolescence

But I was active from ages 6-13

After getting put on TRT and bulking up I was active again from 18-21

Now I’ve accumulated quite a lot of damage. I intend to be active again, but realise I will never lead a normal life… and I can’t see my body holding up past 30-35 regardless of what I do

Funnily enough, deterioration tends to be more rapid when I’m sedentary

There’s obviously a middle ground between a sedentary lifestyle and high impact activity. Regardless of what we do, our bodies incur say… triple the amount of stress through day to day activities relative to a healthy individual

And the list of complications

  • dysautonomia (IST) induced cardiomyopathy/other cardiovascular manifestations
  • the odd rupture of a blood vessel (rare unless VEDS)
  • prolapses/hernias
  • sprains, tears, dislocations
  • early onset degenerative disk disease or arthritis
  • craniocervical instability
  • chiari malformation

And more… are endless

That’s why so many with EDS wind up on disability (around 40%) or unable to hold down a full time job. Many wind up with joint replacements at a young age irrespective of what they do activity wise.

I like that you are optimistic, and chances are you can lift weights for a long time.

But if you decide to get into boxing, mma or any high impact sport… ESPECIALLY if you ramp up training in effort to break into competition (whether it’s boxing, marathon running or cross country skiing)… don’t expect to be able to tolerate it for more than 5 years or so.

There’s a champion powerlifter in Aus with cEDS. If you go on reddit, you’ll find a few competitive kickboxers, BJJ athletes/athletes in other athletic discliplines etc with hEDS. You can reach out and see what they have to say.

I can’t imagine they’ll be competing in ten years from now. Training twice per week? Maybe…

I’d argue resistance training i.e what you are doing is one of the best things you can to in terms of longevity/decreasing how fast you decline

In theory… loose joints and connective tissue leads to muscle spasm as muscles overcompensate for weak connective tissue.

Strengthen those muscles, esp strength endurnance and you’ll be somewhat less unstable

Less instability = fewer dislocations and less general wear and tear

My prerequisites before getting into any sport after the age of 17 were

  • decent endurance (poor form leads to injury)
  • strong muscles (resistance training)
  • good form (private lessons can help)

I think the best way to deal with something like this is to take one day at a time. You seem to be doing everything right!

Worst thing I think someone can do is make their entire identity revolve around an illness they have

I’ve seen many on the spectrum do this. People who could otherwise seem relatively normal walking around like the posterchild for autism because they’ve decided autism is their identity.

Don’t be that person lol. Outside of me bitching on a public forum as an outlet and what I tell my closest friends/parents etc. I’d rather people don’t know that I have EDS

If I go back to martial arts… unless I’m grappling… I’m not telling anyone unless it is absolutely necessary for me to do so i.e i’ve just dislocated my wrist or something.

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Have you ever had shoulder surgery?

My ortho said the chance of my shoulder capsule getting loose over time was too high to justify it. So no. Thankfully, it seems like I didn’t need it. I needed literally 100,000 band pull aparts haha.

Like Bob would crack his knuckles in class and you’d respond by cracking your knuckles, wrist, neck, spine, knees, feet, SI joints, shoulders, jaw etc.

Sorta. I could “crack” a lot of joints pretty easily and loudly. And my shoulder would “slip out” easily as a kid. I remember in high school doing Incline DB presses as part of sports training, and my shoulder would just slip out randomly.

I like that you are optimistic, and chances are you can lift weights for a long time.

I’m gonna take lifting slow and steady so I can do it until old age. Which is why 5/3/1 is perfect. If the barbell moves ever become impossible, I can still use the principles with substituted exercises. People were using 5/3/1 with all sorts of lifts in the early 2010s (when only the first book came out).

In theory… loose joints and connective tissue leads to muscle spasm as muscles overcompensate for weak connective tissue

Yup, which is why stretching did nothing for me. My muscles were EXTREMELY stiff since they were compensating for the joints. They didn’t loosen up to normal until I worked them. If my biceps are tight, for example, stretching does nothing, but light DB curls with squeezes fixes it quickly.

I’d rather people don’t know that I have EDS

I tell people, but it’s nowhere near my personality haha. It’s just an illness/disability that I happen to have.

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I hear this too… But how many orthos have you seen? There are capsular tightening procedures SPECIFICALLY designed for people with ligamentous laxity. They are painful, invasive procedures that usually involve a bone graft alongside a capsular shift.

Data indicates these surgeries are effective. As for capsular shifts alone, it depends… If you are having full dislocations at the drop of a hat, it’s better to get the surgery. HOWEVER, capsular tightening alone will only last 5-10 years for someone with EDS. After which it needs to be redone again and again until you need the shoulder joint replaced.

I’ve seen many shoulder suregons over the years and I’ve heard many different opinions.

Two are adamently against capsular tightening
One advocates heavily for capsular shifts
The others are more interested in rotator cuff or labral pathology. Usually RC specialisation because rotator cuff tears are so common.

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This happened for me with pullovers ALL the time.