[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
That seems to be in flux, historically speaking, but not being armed seems to help tremendously when you want to become one of “them”.
[/quote]
Hence all of my guns.
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
Criminals who attack you, isn’t that what the thread is about?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
If you legitimately fear for the life of your family/friend/yourself then deadly force is justified.
If you do not fear for a/your life then I do not think its justified.[/quote]
What would be the burden of proof for “legitimately fear”?
As in, what would the prosecution have to show in order for your statement that you “legitimately feared” was false?
[/quote]
I would imagine that the circumstances surrounding the situation plus common sense would dictate this.
Example:
Someone steals your car, you run out to find them backing out of your driveway. Shooting them and claiming self defense = BS
Someone breaks into your house, has a weapon and you shoot them when you confront them = legitimate
Something like that.
Does that make sense?
Good thread by the way.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
I think it is pretty easy.
If you legitimately fear for the life of your family/friend/yourself then deadly force is justified.
If you do not fear for a/your life then I do not think its justified.[/quote]
Ya, but how do you prove or even define legitimate fear? Is there a different standard for women, children, cowards, etc…[/quote]
Proving that you were scared for your life?
Come on buddy [/quote]
Do you think it is easy to prove you are scared for your life? People still doubt Zimmerman was scared for his life.
130 lbs guy breaks into your house at 2 AM
Two people are home
Person A: 200lbs former Marine
Person B: 120lbs woman
who is scared?
The answer is: A, A & B, B, or neither. You really don’t know because it’s 100% personal and dependant on the situation.
So how exactly do you justify your blanket statement?[/quote]
It’s not really a blanket statement, it’s different for everyone because everyone’s perception of fear is different.
A situation where a 110 pound woman could fear for her life may be boy a big deal for someone like you or I.
Like I said in my reply to Beans, it depends on the circumstances.
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
Gingers
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
If you legitimately fear for the life of your family/friend/yourself then deadly force is justified.
If you do not fear for a/your life then I do not think its justified.[/quote]
What would be the burden of proof for “legitimately fear”?
As in, what would the prosecution have to show in order for your statement that you “legitimately feared” was false?
[/quote]
I would imagine that the circumstances surrounding the situation plus common sense would dictate this.
Example:
Someone steals your car, you run out to find them backing out of your driveway. Shooting them and claiming self defense = BS
Someone breaks into your house, has a weapon and you shoot them when you confront them = legitimate
Something like that.
Does that make sense?[/quote]
Very much makes sense. So you don’t think deadly force is justified in defense of personal property? (The car?)
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
I think it is pretty easy.
If you legitimately fear for the life of your family/friend/yourself then deadly force is justified.
If you do not fear for a/your life then I do not think its justified.[/quote]
Not so easy! If you are the aggressor, and your victim gets the best of you during the scuffle, and THEN you fear for your life and kill him, it is NOT self-defense.[/quote]
Nice one Maiden this totally makes sense guys & heres why. Imagine you are a single guy you have a booty call & the chick turns up to be married or has a angry boyfriend. Now the boyfriend waits for you in your next encounter starts some shit and you end up dead. Its a vague law that can too easily be exploited to justifiy a homicide. Self defense is just that self defense but stand your ground allows you to go out side the realm of self defense and put your self in harms way with no threat of death. So bassically if you loose the battle you always win the war… Im a gun owner and believe in protecting my shit thats self defense but I dont want to live in a society where I have to be armed 24\7 becuase some dipshit wants to start shit and if a I win I get shot and if I loose I get coma
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
Gingers[/quote]
I see no freckles. Fucking Daywalker invasion right there.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
Gingers[/quote]
I think I see Edgy. Run for your lives…World War G…
I’ve been to New Jersey (Newark) and New York City in the last 3 weeks.
I felt comfortable in NYC when i was there. It was day time. A couple of the people in my group while walking were bumped into, but no one came close to trying to bump me. 6’5" 315 lbs. Everyone saw me coming.
Newark was a different place. The people there told us to get to our vans immediately. We had a group of about 120 people and had 8 vans to fill up. It was midnight and we were about a mile down the street from Seton Hall. It was a rough neighborhood. We made it out alright with no issues, but when people that live there tell you to get out quickly you listen.
I live in the 3rd-4th largest city in the US. Chicago and Houston change places. I also live near one of the roughest places in Houston and it is nothing compared to Newark (That place scared me, maybe because the people told me it was unsafe).
I like having my gun near me at night. I sleep better, but have never had to use it, but will not hesitate if someone comes in my house.
Castle Doctrine, Stand your Ground, and Self-Defense are 3 different legal matters.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I’ve been to New Jersey (Newark) and New York City in the last 3 weeks.
I felt comfortable in NYC when i was there. It was day time. A couple of the people in my group while walking were bumped into, but no one came close to trying to bump me. 6’5" 315 lbs. Everyone saw me coming.
[/quote]
Yea, as long as you’re not in the Bronx, which is still rough, or some parts of Brooklyn, you’re ok. When I’m in Manhattan I’m about as comfortable as I am in my own town.
The brick city is hard as fuck. No doubt. That spot you’re talking about by Seton Hall is really, really bad. There’s spots in the Ironbound section and by the Prudential Center that aren’t too bad, but the rest is a rough spot.
Truly, between Newark, Paterson, and Camden, we’ve got some awful ghettos in NJ. Camden is like the Bronx was in the 80s
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I’ve been to New Jersey (Newark) and New York City in the last 3 weeks.
I felt comfortable in NYC when i was there. It was day time. A couple of the people in my group while walking were bumped into, but no one came close to trying to bump me. 6’5" 315 lbs. Everyone saw me coming.
[/quote]
Yea, as long as you’re not in the Bronx, which is still rough, or some parts of Brooklyn, you’re ok. When I’m in Manhattan I’m about as comfortable as I am in my own town.
The brick city is hard as fuck. No doubt. That spot you’re talking about by Seton Hall is really, really bad. There’s spots in the Ironbound section and by the Prudential Center that aren’t too bad, but the rest is a rough spot.
Truly, between Newark, Paterson, and Camden, we’ve got some awful ghettos in NJ. Camden is like the Bronx was in the 80s[/quote]
That was my first trip up there. We were doing some Sandy Relief and trying to help where we could. I would go back to NYC in a heart beat, in fact want to take my wife for a week long visit. Newark not so much, I made a friend in Newark so I would go visit him, but that is about it.
I’d like to extend these concepts to people who knock on my door trying to sell me an energy plan while my son is sleeping. He’s teething and any restful sleep is worth more than gold.
I want to beat them to a slushy pulp.
Our highly restrictive firearms legislation aside, I think Canada has some pretty intelligent, common sense self defense/use of force laws. In essence you are justified (read: protected from criminal and civil liability) to use a reasonable amount of force to prevent harm form coming to yourself or someone under your protection, up to and including lethal force if you are threatened with grievous bodily injury or death. You can use the amount of force that is reasonably necessary to stop the threat and no more.
The “standard of reasonableness” that is applied is whether a prudent person with a similar level of knowledge, training and physical ability might be inclined to respond in a similar manner if faced with a similar situation (i.e. a 240lb meathead with military training will be held to a different standard than a 120lb school girl). First strike is permitted if you can convincingly articulate to a jury why you reasonably believed an assault was imminent (i.e. pre-assaultive body language cues, credible verbal threats etc). You are not required to wait and then respond.
You are not justified to use lethal force to protect property, although you are permitted to make a citizen’s arrest for crimes involving property (yours or someone else’s) and are justified in using the amount of force necessary to effect the arrest and prevent the continuation of the offence. I would generally say that as a private citizen it’s unwise to put yourself in harm’s way over anybody’s property (including your own), but I understand and share the impulse to intervene.
You are not permitted to shoot someone just because they are in your home, even if you were able to access your properly stored firearm and lock and load in time to do so. You need to be able to show that they posed a credible threat of grievous bodily injury or death to yourself or others in your home at the time that you shot them.
As I know of way more people who have mistakenly gone into someone else’ home in a drunken stupor than I do people who have been victims of home invasions, this seems like not an entirely stupid law to me. However, I would like to see a little more latitude granted in the confines of our own home’s than would be expected out in public.
I think people tend to confuse “justified” with “right”. Justified is an absolute legal term based on the totality of circumstances (especially the laws wherever you happen to be). Right is a subjective moral judgment made according to one’s own values. Both are important but only one stands up in court. This discussion is naturally tending to be gun-centric, but as Irish pointed out with his reference to continuums it’s really a much broader issue than “when are you allowed to draw down and shoot someone?”.
Firearms are just another tool for applying force. You need to understand the laws in your district and you need to have your own lines in the sand drawn ahead of time. The heat of the moment is no time to be making those decisions.
– apologies if this was already posted –
from David Simon’s (The Wire) blog:
[i]"You can stand your ground if you’re white, and you can use a gun to do it. But if you stand your ground with your fists and you’re black, you’re dead.
In the state of Florida, the season on African-Americans now runs year round. Come one, come all. And bring a handgun. The legislators are fine with this blood on their hands. The governor, too. One man accosted another and when it became a fist fight, one man - and one man only - had a firearm. The rest is racial rationalization and dishonorable commentary.
If I were a person of color in Florida, I would pick up a brick and start walking toward that courthouse in Sanford. Those that do not, those that hold the pain and betrayal inside and somehow manage to resist violence – these citizens are testament to a stoic tolerance that is more than the rest of us deserve. I confess, their patience and patriotism is well beyond my own.
Behold, the lewd, pornographic embrace of two great American pathologies: Race and guns, both of which have conspired not only to take the life of a teenager, but to make that killing entirely permissible. I can?t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country. Tonight, anyone who truly understands what justice is and what it requires of a society is ashamed to call himself an American."[/i]
[quote]chillain wrote:
– apologies if this was already posted –
from David Simon’s (The Wire) blog:
[i]"You can stand your ground if you’re white, and you can use a gun to do it. But if you stand your ground with your fists and you’re black, you’re dead.
In the state of Florida, the season on African-Americans now runs year round. Come one, come all. And bring a handgun. The legislators are fine with this blood on their hands. The governor, too. One man accosted another and when it became a fist fight, one man - and one man only - had a firearm. The rest is racial rationalization and dishonorable commentary.
If I were a person of color in Florida, I would pick up a brick and start walking toward that courthouse in Sanford. Those that do not, those that hold the pain and betrayal inside and somehow manage to resist violence – these citizens are testament to a stoic tolerance that is more than the rest of us deserve. I confess, their patience and patriotism is well beyond my own.
Behold, the lewd, pornographic embrace of two great American pathologies: Race and guns, both of which have conspired not only to take the life of a teenager, but to make that killing entirely permissible. I can?t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country. Tonight, anyone who truly understands what justice is and what it requires of a society is ashamed to call himself an American."[/i]
source: Trayvon – The Audacity of Despair [/quote]
Wow really.
Im glad I have stayed out of that thread and that mess.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
If someone has you in a full mounted position (mma term) and is slamming your head into the concrete [/quote]
For a full minute mind you…Yeah you would fear for your life.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Kill them all[/quote]
and who might ‘them’ be? [/quote]
Gingers[/quote]
Why can’t we ever have a blonde apocalypse? I demand a blonde apocalypse!