I was a Mentzer client.
With deadlifts there is no strength curve. It’s up or down. Chains “could”
vary the resistance. I don’t see the point in it though.
I don’t think it makes much difference because you should not lower the deadlift slow enough for it to be a factor.
@dips_rule Good point.
Deadlifts are risky enough (after reading Bill De Simone’s stuff around this, I will likely not do them again), but doing them at an artificially slow rep cadence seems extra risky to me.
A heavy deadlift is definitely approaching SuperSlow in terms of tempo/performance. A regular heavy deadlift to me is 4/4 tempo. And yes, I reap the added benefits from a slow negative on deadlifts - just because I have a history of lumbar disc hernia - and protect the spine by proper bracing through slow negatives. No belt needed when you “own” the weight.
This is my perspective
If your talking about a heavy pull that takes you up to 10 seconds to lift trying to lower that weight could be trouble because your trying to lower it slowly. It could be very hard. You just went all out on the pull.
Speaking for myself,If I would pull 300 pounds with a trap bar and it took 10 seconds without counting or doing slow reps on purpose it could be hard to lower. That would be my last rep.
Why? Because in theory that’s a max pull or close to it. The negative would be so that I would have to follow it down so to speak. That’s less than four seconds
Trying to slow the negative down to four seconds may be possible. I doubt many could to that unless they could pull something like 400 without any trouble.
I have low back issues. For me I would be delusional to think I could own that kind of weight with low back issues. Even with immaculate form. No way in hell I try anything like that with a conventional deadlift of a SLDL Not after my experience that I talked about.
If anyone with a history of herniated discs wants to do that more power to you.
As Mentzer once said “go ahead I won’t feel a thing”
McGuff himself told me about not doing superslow deadlifts.
I would have to agree, SS on some exercises can be too dangerous
I too have had back issues and imo its not worth it
risk vs reward
I may have to be careful in order not to generalize here. In other words - what works for me, may not work for someone else why I don’t recommend my strategy.
I have always had a strong back, probably part of my hereditary traits (genetics). After my herniated disc (skiing injury 10 years ago). I passed on deadlifts for many years until recently trying it again. Suffering from some minor back stiffness post illness, but otherwise fine. Rebuilt my regular deadlift strength by starting in the upright position (with the barbell racked in thigh height) beginning my rep on the negative. I always did these negatives slow, and to my surprise it has worked even on fairly heavy weights (350 lbs for reps). Since then moved on to regular deadlifts. So far so good.
The way DeSimone explained it in ‘Congruent Exercise’ (highly recommended book), and I am paraphrasing, the issue with deadlifts (and similar moves) is you have no idea what is happening to your discs…until it happens. Misloading discs may not be immediately felt, but long term wear occurs until one day it hits you. You really cannot see how the muscles and spine are interacting with such a move - this is the real problem. And then one day, it’s like the old expression, “Everything was fine until I reached down to tie my shoes and then my back went out!” There are far safer ways to train the lower back and just as effective or more effective exercises to train the other muscles involved. I see no point in the deadlift to be honest unless one competes.
21 years ago at 49 years old I set a goal of doing 405 for ten reps in a Trap Bar DL ( ‘Shrug Bar’ to be exact ). It was only to be a one time thing but after I did it at 49 a friend said I should have waited until I was 50 , as it would have sounded better - " deadlifted 405 X 10 on my 50th birthday".
That sounded reasonable enough to do it again the following year at 50. Then I started wondering how long I could keep it up. When I did it at 60 I wondered if could I do it at 65 . When that came and went I thought about keeping it going until I did it at 70, if possible. So, at the end of this past March I did it again at 70.
I never did DL’s with a straight bar as I felt very vulnerable with the straight bar — although a SLD felt fine and were a staple in my workouts forever. The Trap Bar makes the DL seem like the most natural, safe exercise for me … never once did I ever feel like I was risking anything.
Quite a few guys on this site jumped all over me about it , saying I’d be in a wheelchair if I ever tried it at 70 … but at almost 71 , I still don’t have a wheelchair on order.
Two changes I made was moving it ahead in the year from end of June to the end of March as I realized those first five years of doing it that TBDL’s and the hot summer didn’t go together too well. Second change I made was in the last 4-5 years . I used to start out at 315 X 10 and add 5 lbs a week until I hit 405. I don’t cycle it that long anymore , concerned the decrepit old man might burn out before I got to the 405 week. So now I begin the cycle at 345 X 8 and keep it at 8 reps until the last two weeks where I’ll do ten reps, adding 5 lbs each week until I hit hit 405. I begin in Jan and end at the end of March.
Always remember Jones and Leistner saying Squats and Deadlifts would be the hardest thing you’ll ever oi in the gym. Squats never were that magic exercise for me but the TBDL certainly were.
Man I think I mentioned I rarely use superslow. Sometimes on chins and dips
Re: deadlifts
I stopped going heavy on the TBDL a few years ago. Anything over #300 would beat me up. #250 as well. Sore and a run over by the bus feeling
I was doing high reps with the TBDL. No point adding weight just to progress. High or low reps.
What I started doing with the trap/shrug bar is use nothing larger in height than 25 pound plates using the low handles.
Yes it’s very low to the ground. The range of motion is increased. I don’t have to go as heavy. I can focus on better form. I pause each rep on the floor. Never touch and go or bouncing. Maybe even rest pause at times.
After reading an article by Dr.Ken about DB deadlifts I made the switch. They feel more natural to me.
It’s the only exercise I use for my lower body. It hits my quads more too. It works a lot of muscle.
I try to train every third or four day. On the second workout I use 40% less weight and higher reps.
Sometimes I only go once a week. I’m 58 years old and I know what works best for me.
I have zero doubt that Trentine has been doing something different for quite a long time — even while he was still publicly promoting SS!!
After seeing Dr. Ken use a Trap Bar to attempt to murder his secretary at a strength training convention in the mid 80’s , I had my Uncle weld me one before eventually buying a Shrug Bar from Piedmont Design way back when …
I still believe this to be the best piece of equipment ever made. Until I learned about the Gerard Trap Bar ( original one ), I only did SLDL as I felt vulnerable to injury trying regular DL’s. SLDL felt completely safe to me but never felt right with a straight bar and bending my knees. TBDL feels like the most natural and safe movement of anything I ever did in the gym.
This was to me what the barbell squat was to most people … or was supposed to be. It triggered strength, muscle and bodyweight gains like nothing else. Still use it today from Jan - March at 71 years old.
When they bury me instructions are that my Shrug Bar is supposed to be thrown in the hole with me. My gym wouldn’t get one for the longest time so for 7 years I carried this back and forth once a week until the assholes finally decided to get one.
The one they have is made of hollow, square tubing and has the raised handles too . It’s known as a ‘Hex Bar’ there … they have no idea what a ‘Trab Bar’ is. I turn it upside down to use the low handles. It sits in the back corner in a section of the gym that most people don’t use , which makes it even better.
Most likely he realized the phenomenon of “Central Fatigue “ and how this may affect muscle fiber recruitment. The hypothesis of CF pertains to elongated set time length leading to decreased brain impulses to the muscles due to fatigue. SuperSlow sets have notorious longer lengths of actual time under load, and therefore possess many associates who look like they rarely train under any training methodology. Perhaps Central Fatigue causes a lack of fast twitch fiber recruitment as the set length increases in duration.
More and more, training to failure seems to invite premature burnout of the central nervous system. Occasionally this may be efficacious, but Chad Waterbury’s 10 x 3 system looks inviting to mature lifters.
One thing I’ve noticed from the SuperSlow aficionados is a total lack of understanding of the CNS. Wonder why?
Someone, back in the many past debates we’ve had here in this forum, made the point that the chances of us actually “burning out our nervous system” is less than miniscule → our bodies simply will not allow it. AND if you did actually do that, you’d probably be fucking dead.
I do heartily agree there are issues with the ‘All Out Failure’ approach, primarily that many muscles – beyond the ones actually being targeted – come into play to help complete those final gut-busting efforts. The result is excessive fatigue, which is not easily recovered from before your next session. Do this all the time and your fatigue can become chronic.
Simon,
The Central Fatigue phenomenon may be a protective mechanism to keep oneself from severe injuries, much like muscle spindles and Golgi bodies
@atp_4_me A point definately worthy of consideration, Noakes also make this protective mechanism point in his Central Governor Theory.
@simon_hecubus a good point about other muscles coming into play. This is another dimension to failure training potentially degrading good form, not only are you cheating the targeted rep but also increasing the chance of injury.
…and unnecessarily extending the recovery time period!
He did. Worked for McGuff before that
