South Dakota Bans Abortions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
242

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:

He wants the government to enforce ideas that are either religious or are based on religious ideas, which is not exactly what the US founding fathers envisioned.

WRONG!

I want the law to protect an innocent life that cannot protect itself. Which in no way contradicts what our founding fathers wanted.

But you do want the government involved in that innocent life protection enterprise of yours?

Any suggestions how that could happen in a non-violent way?
[/quote]

Why do you keep mentioning violence?

Were you beaten as a child?

No one needs to get hurt. Especially, the unborn.

By the way, are you this upset over the 50 million abortions violently performed since 1973?

No I guess not.

So it’s not really violence that you are concerned with.

243

[quote]orion wrote:

So, maybe this is something that should not be dealt with using laws and the justice system and everyone should mind his own business regarding that matter?[/quote]

This is exactly why we have laws!
To protect the innocent as they cannot protect themselves.

244

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Were you beaten as a child?[/quote]

Yes, on a regular basis…

Why do you ask?

245

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:

So, maybe this is something that should not be dealt with using laws and the justice system and everyone should mind his own business regarding that matter?

This is exactly why we have laws!
To protect the innocent as they cannot protect themselves.

[/quote]

It is just that in this case a lot of people question that those “innocents” do exist.

As long as this question is not answered the rest of your argument makes no sense.

246

[quote]Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:

So, maybe this is something that should not be dealt with using laws and the justice system and everyone should mind his own business regarding that matter?

Or, maybe those so worried about abortions could help make the lives of the children already on this planet who are abdandoned or living in poverty a little better. You would think with all of the focus on people not living yet, the ones already alive would be FIRST priority.[/quote]

I do not know if I am for or against that…

On the one hand it would help a lot of people, on the other hand, if they really practised what they preached, religion would have a Renaissance…

But then again if that was the true face of Christianity I could live with that…

Thank God that this will never happen.

Let them practise their faith by forcing others to live by its doctrins…

247

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Or, maybe those so worried about abortions could help make the lives of the children already on this planet who are abdandoned or living in poverty a little better. You would think with all of the focus on people not living yet, the ones already alive would be FIRST priority.[/quote]

More liberal talking points on abortion…Ha ha.

I’m all for helping children, but that does not relate to the topic of abortion.

If it really did then you are basically stating that it’s okay to kill the unborn if no one can afford them.

You know what that sounds like if taken to the next logical level?

THINK

248

If it is the law of the land that murder is against the law then abortion should be illegal. If you kill somebody you are convicted a murderer. If you kill a pregnant woman on her way to the abortion clinic you get charged with double murder. Make sense to anybody? If abortion is to remain legal, then some forms of murder should be legalized. If abortion is legal, you should also be able to take your child to the same doctor and have them put to sleep. If abortions are legal, Susan Smith should be a free woman. She did nothing wrong.

249

In all honesty I am trying to see the other side of this issue, as I sit here and ponder the thing.

For example, are there “victimless crimes?”

If so, then I can understand those who would like them removed from the books. I don’t like big government.

But, when it comes to abortion it seems that the most innnocent are being snuffed out in the name of “choice.”

How can that square with a moral society which should be protecting the weakest and most innocent?

Again, I am really trying to understand the other sides viewpoint.

Thanks

250

[quote]orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:
I dont see why religion has to be brought into the abortion debate. Anyone with a shred of knowledge about science knows that a zygote is the first stage of human development that ends ultimately with death. Now, does consciousness happen with a zygote? Probably not, but why should that be what determines whether you can kill it.

And it is a joke to say “you shouldn’t try and force your beliefs on other people” to pro lifers. HELLO they think you’re trying to force your beliefs onto an innocent life(the baby).

It is like an overlord telling an abolitionist “you may believe all people are equal, but i dont, so don’t force your beliefs on me.” I’m sure you’ll say “no no no its different, because another person is involved with your decision(the slave),” but pro-lifers believe another life is involved when abortion is at stake.

So, please, stop with this “dont force your beliefs on me” as an attack on pro-lifers.

That is not the same because I am pretty sure I am a human being , as where slaves, whereas a fertilized egg is probably not.

If I scratch my butt I “abort” more human live than that.

What is even more important, us “liberals” want the freedom to make our own choices, conservative christians can feel free to do whatever they want.

They, however would, without any hesitation, use violence to force us to live according to their (religious) beliefs.

[/quote]

if you scratch your ass, you are killing YOUR OWN CELLS. If you abort a fertilized egg, you are killing life, which is not yours. Just as i can’t determine the fate of a blackman by making him a slave, you shouldn’t be killing life. You can call it a fetus/random lump of cells or whatever you want to help you sleep at night, but you know damn well what you are killing is life and within 9 months will develop into a baby boy.

Yes i said developed into a baby boy. You see, we are ALWAYS developing. Our body is never done changing. To think we are magically different once we cross over out of the womb is silly

your nonsense and ignorance about religion is exactly what i was talking about in the first paragraph. Catholics may be against abortions, but not all people against abortions are catholics. get it?

251

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Or, maybe those so worried about abortions could help make the lives of the children already on this planet who are abdandoned or living in poverty a little better. You would think with all of the focus on people not living yet, the ones already alive would be FIRST priority.[/quote]

Nowhere have you shown, or anyone else, that pro-life advocates are disinterested in helping poor people. It isn’t an either-or proposition. I can be both pro-life and pro-helping poor people.

252

[quote]Diomede wrote:
orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:
I dont see why religion has to be brought into the abortion debate. Anyone with a shred of knowledge about science knows that a zygote is the first stage of human development that ends ultimately with death. Now, does consciousness happen with a zygote? Probably not, but why should that be what determines whether you can kill it.

And it is a joke to say “you shouldn’t try and force your beliefs on other people” to pro lifers. HELLO they think you’re trying to force your beliefs onto an innocent life(the baby).

It is like an overlord telling an abolitionist “you may believe all people are equal, but i dont, so don’t force your beliefs on me.” I’m sure you’ll say “no no no its different, because another person is involved with your decision(the slave),” but pro-lifers believe another life is involved when abortion is at stake.

So, please, stop with this “dont force your beliefs on me” as an attack on pro-lifers.

That is not the same because I am pretty sure I am a human being , as where slaves, whereas a fertilized egg is probably not.

If I scratch my butt I “abort” more human live than that.

What is even more important, us “liberals” want the freedom to make our own choices, conservative christians can feel free to do whatever they want.

They, however would, without any hesitation, use violence to force us to live according to their (religious) beliefs.

if you scratch your ass, you are killing YOUR OWN CELLS. If you abort a fertilized egg, you are killing life, which is not yours. Just as i can’t determine the fate of a blackman by making him a slave, you shouldn’t be killing life. You can call it a fetus/random lump of cells or whatever you want to help you sleep at night, but you know damn well what you are killing is life and within 9 months will develop into a baby boy.

Yes i said developed into a baby boy. You see, we are ALWAYS developing. Our body is never done changing. To think we are magically different once we cross over out of the womb is silly

your nonsense and ignorance about religion is exactly what i was talking about in the first paragraph. Catholics may be against abortions, but not all people against abortions are catholics. get it?[/quote]

Let me answer in the same manner:

Are you aware that all, and I mean all, except for 0,01% of all species that ever existed are extinct now?

Do you know that for a species of our complexity 4 milliom years seems to be the average span of existence?

Did you know that the Yellowstone National Park is a giant underground volcanoe that is overdue and could snuff out homo sapiens any second?

You dare to want to limit my options by using scrolls that were written by semi literate nomads in the fucking Bronce Age?

Are you fucking insane bitch!!!

Human life may be as insignificant as a moscito dying on your windshield, but my live is important enough that you will not interfere with pseudo-magic mumbo-jumbo…

253

[quote]orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:
orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:
I dont see why religion has to be brought into the abortion debate. Anyone with a shred of knowledge about science knows that a zygote is the first stage of human development that ends ultimately with death. Now, does consciousness happen with a zygote? Probably not, but why should that be what determines whether you can kill it.

And it is a joke to say “you shouldn’t try and force your beliefs on other people” to pro lifers. HELLO they think you’re trying to force your beliefs onto an innocent life(the baby).

It is like an overlord telling an abolitionist “you may believe all people are equal, but i dont, so don’t force your beliefs on me.” I’m sure you’ll say “no no no its different, because another person is involved with your decision(the slave),” but pro-lifers believe another life is involved when abortion is at stake.

So, please, stop with this “dont force your beliefs on me” as an attack on pro-lifers.

That is not the same because I am pretty sure I am a human being , as where slaves, whereas a fertilized egg is probably not.

If I scratch my butt I “abort” more human live than that.

What is even more important, us “liberals” want the freedom to make our own choices, conservative christians can feel free to do whatever they want.

They, however would, without any hesitation, use violence to force us to live according to their (religious) beliefs.

if you scratch your ass, you are killing YOUR OWN CELLS. If you abort a fertilized egg, you are killing life, which is not yours. Just as i can’t determine the fate of a blackman by making him a slave, you shouldn’t be killing life. You can call it a fetus/random lump of cells or whatever you want to help you sleep at night, but you know damn well what you are killing is life and within 9 months will develop into a baby boy.

Yes i said developed into a baby boy. You see, we are ALWAYS developing. Our body is never done changing. To think we are magically different once we cross over out of the womb is silly

your nonsense and ignorance about religion is exactly what i was talking about in the first paragraph. Catholics may be against abortions, but not all people against abortions are catholics. get it?

Let me answer in the same manner:

Are you aware that all, and I mean all, except for 0,01% of all species that ever existed are extinct now?

Do you know that for a species of our complexity 4 milliom years seems to be the average span of existence?

Did you know that the Yellowstone National Park is a giant underground volcanoe that is overdue and could snuff out homo sapiens any second?

You dare to want to limit my options by using scrolls that were written by semi literate nomads in the fucking Bronce Age?

Are you fucking insane bitch!!!

Human life may be as insignificant as a moscito dying on your windshield, but my live is important enough that you will not interfere with pseudo-magic mumbo-jumbo…[/quote]

yes
no
no

what? i dont know what you’re talking about in your last little rant.

“human life may be as insignificant as a mosquito dying on your windshield?” I dont think you honestly believe that. Are you against all laws that protect you and against the very notion of freedom?

254

[quote]ZEB wrote:
In all honesty I am trying to see the other side of this issue, as I sit here and ponder the thing.

For example, are there “victimless crimes?”

If so, then I can understand those who would like them removed from the books. I don’t like big government.

But, when it comes to abortion it seems that the most innnocent are being snuffed out in the name of “choice.”

How can that square with a moral society which should be protecting the weakest and most innocent?

Again, I am really trying to understand the other sides viewpoint.

Thanks[/quote]

Let me try:

Let us suppose I had a book…

A holy one…

I happen to believe in it…

I get ridiculed a lot for it…

However, that book states that there are some things human beings do not know yet , which is why everyone must make up their own mind …

If you challenge those beliefs I am deeply offended because they are basis of everything I believe in…

255

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
In all honesty I am trying to see the other side of this issue, as I sit here and ponder the thing.

For example, are there “victimless crimes?”

If so, then I can understand those who would like them removed from the books. I don’t like big government.

But, when it comes to abortion it seems that the most innnocent are being snuffed out in the name of “choice.”

How can that square with a moral society which should be protecting the weakest and most innocent?

Again, I am really trying to understand the other sides viewpoint.

Thanks

Let me try:

Let us suppose I had a book…

A holy one…

I happen to believe in it…

I get ridiculed a lot for it…

However, that book states that there are some things human beings do not know yet , which is why everyone must make up their own mind …

If you challenge those beliefs I am deeply offended because they are basis of everything I believe in…
[/quote]

You might be able to use part of that argument if we were debating this on a religious perspective. However, we are not.

Try again.

256

[quote]Diomede wrote:

“human life may be as insignificant as a mosquito dying on your windshield?” I dont think you honestly believe that. Are you against all laws that protect you and against the very notion of freedom?[/quote]

Yes,

and I am not only talking about unborn babys, oh no, I am talking about human life in general…

Maybe we will survive but the odds are overwhelmingly against us…

I am anti-freedom? By being pro- choice? Whow, I must be extra-special to be able to pull that off…

257

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
In all honesty I am trying to see the other side of this issue, as I sit here and ponder the thing.

For example, are there “victimless crimes?”

If so, then I can understand those who would like them removed from the books. I don’t like big government.

But, when it comes to abortion it seems that the most innnocent are being snuffed out in the name of “choice.”

How can that square with a moral society which should be protecting the weakest and most innocent?

Again, I am really trying to understand the other sides viewpoint.

Thanks

Let me try:

Let us suppose I had a book…

A holy one…

I happen to believe in it…

I get ridiculed a lot for it…

However, that book states that there are some things human beings do not know yet , which is why everyone must make up their own mind …

If you challenge those beliefs I am deeply offended because they are basis of everything I believe in…

You might be able to use part of that argument if we were debating this on a religious perspective. However, we are not.

Try again.
[/quote]

Well then,

I do not happen to believe that a fertilized egg is a human being.

The well being of the mother, father, whoever really is more important to me that the potential of a few cells with human DNA.

The very thought of forcing a woman to carry out a pregnancy against her will is repulsive to me.

I think you want to base laws on what feels right, instead of what is right.

I don?t like bronce age thinking, dealing with todays problems.

Freedom (of choice) is the most important issue. All else is secondary, because if we are responsible for our actions our options should not be limited by fairy tales…

258

[quote]orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:

“human life may be as insignificant as a mosquito dying on your windshield?” I dont think you honestly believe that. Are you against all laws that protect you and against the very notion of freedom?

Yes,

and I am not only talking about unborn babys, oh no, I am talking about human life in general…

Maybe we will survive but the odds are overwhelmingly against us…

I am anti-freedom? By being pro- choice? Whow, I must be extra-special to be able to pull that off… [/quote]

because you think humans are insignificant. Is freedom insignificant?

259

[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
In all honesty I am trying to see the other side of this issue, as I sit here and ponder the thing.

For example, are there “victimless crimes?”

If so, then I can understand those who would like them removed from the books. I don’t like big government.

But, when it comes to abortion it seems that the most innnocent are being snuffed out in the name of “choice.”

How can that square with a moral society which should be protecting the weakest and most innocent?

Again, I am really trying to understand the other sides viewpoint.

Thanks

Let me try:

Let us suppose I had a book…

A holy one…

I happen to believe in it…

I get ridiculed a lot for it…

However, that book states that there are some things human beings do not know yet , which is why everyone must make up their own mind …

If you challenge those beliefs I am deeply offended because they are basis of everything I believe in…

You might be able to use part of that argument if we were debating this on a religious perspective. However, we are not.

Try again.
[/quote]

Is that not coming around full circle to the right to life issue?

260

[quote]orion wrote:

Freedom (of choice) is the most important issue. All else is secondary, because if we are responsible for our actions our options should not be limited by fairy tales…[/quote]

And our actions should be laden with responsibility. Anything less is just a sham argument. Having sex and then “fixing the problem” when pregnancy occurs should NOT be an option for many reasons. Not the least of which is it gives no rights to the unborn who are the most innocent and weak.

But it also rewards ditching responsibility for that child. 50 million unborn killed? Is anyone that naive to think that the huge majority were not life and death, or rape, incest matters?

You choose not to protect the rights of the unborn. I think you’re wrong.

We will have to settle for a tie.

Hey…that’s what always happens on these boards.

Take care,

Zeb

261

[quote]Diomede wrote:
orion wrote:
Diomede wrote:

“human life may be as insignificant as a mosquito dying on your windshield?” I dont think you honestly believe that. Are you against all laws that protect you and against the very notion of freedom?

Yes,

and I am not only talking about unborn babys, oh no, I am talking about human life in general…

Maybe we will survive but the odds are overwhelmingly against us…

I am anti-freedom? By being pro- choice? Whow, I must be extra-special to be able to pull that off…

because you think humans are insignificant. Is freedom insignificant?[/quote]

Generally yes, because it is a concept developed by a species that is doomed anyway…

But, since my days are numbered, I am willing to fight for some of my illusions and freedom is one of them…