Thanks for your reply. Ok sure.
-Personally was more just wondering whether you were prescribing something like your ‘Over warm- up’ technique like in the GMM article.
I’ll say this - and this is just my opinion - when I’m going for multiple top sets, I’ll just work up to the top set and go, but when I’m doing one all out set, an over warmup makes my work weight feel light and I usually crush PR’s on that all out set. For my multiple top sets, I feel like it’s just generating too much fatigue and interferes with me getting all my reps.
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This thread has been eye opener for someone who has always followed 5x5, 6x3, 4x8 etc.
I understand the individual variability thing, but are there any articles/programs on t-nation that would give me an idea of how to structure this type of programming?
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Paul - You make it sound like there’s one super obvious way to warm up, but I’ve seen different coaches - Wendler, Thibs and yourself - prescribe different methods. So, it’s not clear to a lot of us. How are you having this guy warm up for his top set?
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If a top set of 12 is prescribed you do 12 easy, 12 moderate, 12 hard, and 12 failure. Overtime you may do 2 easy, 2 moderate and 1 hard. It depends. Unless work prescribes straight sets or ascending or descending rep ranges ramp up using the same weight.
Poliquin way is different but it doesnt matter in this context.
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An great old article I’ve recommended on the forums several times is Pump Down the Volume by CT. Some of his old stuff was excellent. Training Strategy Handbook was good too, along with How to Design a Damn Good Program.
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I’m not answering for anyone, but I like talking shop and some stuff mentioned in this thread. There’s no exact way. Just don’t tire yourself out. Higher rep sets need less warming up. Lower rep sets need more. It also depends on the exercise and how into the workout you are.
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I recently changed how I was warming up because of a video I watched with John meadows and Paul doing a leg workout. They talk directly about it and how they don’t drive their warm up sets to high rep range. Basically they aren’t trying to build fatigue until working sets. I started doing this and top sets go much better.
I wasn’t taking warmups close to failure obviously but if I was shooting for 12s that day they’d all be 12 reps.
First time I did it I was going to hit a weight on hack squat with bands for 12-14 range based on previous workouts and it felt good so I kept going and got to 20 on it. It was very eye opening.
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Warm ups -
Light - set of 10-12
2nd set - add weight - set of 8
3rd set - add weight - set of 5-6
Usually ready to go by then. If I need one more warm up it’s a set of 3-4 reps with a little more weight.
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So when you talk about 5 effective reps at the end of a set to failure…how many total effective reps per muscle do you do?
Is one all out set gettting a rep PR and getting 5 effective reps all you need. Or does muscle need more of those “effective reps” to grow.
legs like high reps. Tom Platz has videos where he would just backsquat for 2 minute sets non stop.
Also, Dante, john meadows, and other quad zillas sprinkle in 20 rep sets. “widowmakers”
Since Thibs simply took our convo and decided to write articles and make himself look smart with it, I’ll expound (since he really didn’t read any further as to why all of this ends up being 5 reps).
Some muscles are going to be need more than 5 effective reps in a training session and some can grow perfectly fine on a single set to failure (which we’ve seen in studies as well).
The other part is that (and Thibs doesn’t know this because you actually have to read more data) it’s dumb to split the work evenly across all muscle groups and think about training volume performed in a weekly fashion because it flat out doesn’t account for nervous system fatigue most effectively.
That means all depending, quads could get 20 effective reps in a training session, then 5-10 effective reps in a different training session later in the week. But something like biceps could get 20 effective reps in a session, then 20 effective reps in another training session because biceps recover much faster.
This is why it irks me when I tell someone something like that and then they go writing whole articles on it without delving deeper into these topics.
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Thanks for the response.
So if training legs once a week at home doing squats only for quads (no access to leg extensions or leg press) I could do 3 sets close failure in 6 to 12 rep range and get 15 effective reps in and be good for growth?
This has been a fundamental concept of muscle recover since I can remember, and have seen it in writing at least 20 years ago.
Did you teach Ian King this before he wrote “Get Buffed” too?
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Paul I’m not fully versed on effective reps, but I think I partially understand. The reps that drive adaptations…in my mind I think the reps beyond RPE scale of 8 or something.
My mind wonders…does tension play a role in effective reps “effectiveness”…let me
Try to explain my question…
Bob does leg press with 500lbs… hits 4 effective reps as he reps out 10,11,12,13th rep as he shits his pants.
Bob in other multiverse does 400lbs and hits effective 4 reps at rep 17,18,19,20.
Both bobs hit 4 effective reps, but bob 1 had higher loading and tension. But I guess bob 2 had more metabolite buildup…
Does the quad care?
Sorry, I’m bored at work.
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You might be better off going to technical failure with squats and the going to true failure with a superset of body weight leg extensions and heels elevated barbell hack squats and or front foot elevated split squats.
No it hasn’t. Ian King couldn’t have told you shit about why it is that 5 reps are the maximum amount of effective growth reps that can be achieved in a single set. And you can’t tell me why either. I honestly can’t stand you smart ass online bitches who run your mouth like this but literally don’t know shit.
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Dude I don’t even know what it is you just typed.
There can be a maximum of 5 effective growth reps in a set to failure. I don’t know why you’re stuck on 4 there or what the rest of that even means.
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You’ve jumped the shark. Insulting your base is just tasteless.
I was talking about the part quoted, which pertains to the size of the muscle and length of time for recovery.
And the whole effective rep gimmick is just silly. People have been doing them and building muscle for a lot longer than you’ve been around.
All you’re really talking about is loading parameters and you’ve had to come up with an interesting way of saying it because it has already been done to death.
Like all of the rep schemes that have been done previously were not.
And let go of the douchy insults. You have a pretty decent gig happening. No need to make an ass of yourself.
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