Some Allies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
JeffR wrote:
gdollars,

Thanks for that informative link. That irritates me that Israeli know how is being peddled to China.

Do you have a secondary link confirming this? I thank you in advance.

However, remember that palestine is in the wrong 100%. I used to have sympathy for palestinians.

That ended abrubtly when they started targeting civilians for bombing.

Using terrorism as a goal INVALIDATES whatever cause you fight for. No matter what it is. Period.

Now, if the palestinians would renounce terrorism, stop electing terrorist organizations to head the government, STOP TERRORISM against civilians, you wouldn’t find a more sympathetic proponent than myself.

However, as long as that is their tactic/strategy and dogma, then Israel receives 100% of my support.

JeffR

I hate to bring it to you Effr0 but America was conquered on the Indians through terrorism. And terrorists stole it from Great Britain.[/quote]

reckless,

I’m going to start a competition every December. Among the categories shall be troll of the year.

We’ll vote on it. I have to tell you, you are leading.

Oh, are you calling the United States terrorists?

JeffR

22

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ? ? ? THEY HAVE WMD’S ? ? ?

THEY SHOULD BE INVADED ASAP ! ! !

Holy shit!

This is just as good as the intelligence Bush used to invade Iraq. Quickly, give him a call and present this evidence.[/quote]

bruce,

Do they have men in Ontario? If yes, you must feel like an outcast.

By the way, most of the bad things Bush accused saddam of doing and planning were true.

I can see you now with your hands over your ears, “Bush is bad. Bush is bad. I can’t hear you. Bush is bad.”

JeffR

23

[quote]burntfrenchfry wrote:

The problem is that the only fighter the U.S. has that is clearly superior is the F-22 Raptor. However, many have claimed that since the Raptor was created to fight a now non-existent enemy (the Soviet Union), it is useless and should be cut back.[/quote]

Incorrect, the F-35 (already in production) is slated to replace the F-16. And the equivalence of F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s may be debatable (hard to argue with things like the F-15’s 104-0 record, laser-guided air-to-air bombing, and satellite killing capability), but to compare any of them to the Russian-powered Chinese J-10 is a little premature. And the main reason the F-16 is superior to any model is because there are about a billion of them on the planet.

Besides everybody knows that if you have to dogfight, the F-14 is the way to go.

24

[quote]lucasa wrote:
burntfrenchfry wrote:

The problem is that the only fighter the U.S. has that is clearly superior is the F-22 Raptor. However, many have claimed that since the Raptor was created to fight a now non-existent enemy (the Soviet Union), it is useless and should be cut back.

Incorrect, the F-35 (already in production) is slated to replace the F-16. And the equivalence of F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s may be debatable (hard to argue with things like the F-15’s 104-0 record, laser-guided air-to-air bombing, and satellite killing capability), but to compare any of them to the Russian-powered Chinese J-10 is a little premature. And the main reason the F-16 is superior to any model is because there are about a billion of them on the planet.

Besides everybody knows that if you have to dogfight, the F-14 is the way to go.[/quote]

Good for Iran I guess.

25

[quote]hedo wrote:

Some of these medical flights are non-stop from Iraq to Texas, where there are several major military hospitals.[/quote]

All due respect to soldiers and servicemen and women and I’m not really defending the Europeans but… How injured can someone be that they’re treated on a non-stop flight from Iraq to Texas?

Has anybody died or suffered serious maladies because of this, or are we talking about air controllers needing to reroute decent amounts of air traffic vs. a nurse’s aid changing a dressing two more times?

26

[quote]etaco wrote:

Good for Iran I guess.
[/quote]

Thanks, that bulb clicked on right after I hit “submit”.

27

[quote]hedo wrote:
Other supposed allies…

The Europeans Win Some

February 14, 2007: Strategypage.com

European opposition to American efforts in Iraq is expressed in many little ways. For example, American transports flying badly wounded U.S. troops back to the United States, often ask European air controllers for a more direct flight path through European air space.

This is in order to get the wounded soldier or marine to the American hospital more quickly. This is particularly useful when the aircraft have been turned into a flying ECU (Emergency Care Unit), and doctors are actually treating the seriously wounded in flight.

The European air controllers rarely allow the direct flight. It would mean some more work for them, but saying “no” is another way to stick it to those bastards who removed Saddam Hussein from power, and continue to fight Iraqis who want to destroy democracy in Iraq.

When the American medical flight reaches American air space, air controllers are quick to give the transports the shortest possible route to its destination. Some of these medical flights are non-stop from Iraq to Texas, where there are several major military hospitals. [/quote]

You realize the major U.S. military hospital outside our borders is in Germany, right? To my knowledge it’s the biggest one outside the U.S.

More importantly, everyone moans (usually justifiably) about the French and the Germans, but the Israelis are supposedly these steadfast allies, our greatest supporters in the world. Sure they are.

28

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
hedo wrote:
Other supposed allies…

The Europeans Win Some

February 14, 2007: Strategypage.com

European opposition to American efforts in Iraq is expressed in many little ways. For example, American transports flying badly wounded U.S. troops back to the United States, often ask European air controllers for a more direct flight path through European air space.

This is in order to get the wounded soldier or marine to the American hospital more quickly. This is particularly useful when the aircraft have been turned into a flying ECU (Emergency Care Unit), and doctors are actually treating the seriously wounded in flight.

The European air controllers rarely allow the direct flight. It would mean some more work for them, but saying “no” is another way to stick it to those bastards who removed Saddam Hussein from power, and continue to fight Iraqis who want to destroy democracy in Iraq.

When the American medical flight reaches American air space, air controllers are quick to give the transports the shortest possible route to its destination. Some of these medical flights are non-stop from Iraq to Texas, where there are several major military hospitals.

You realize the major U.S. military hospital outside our borders is in Germany, right? To my knowledge it’s the biggest one outside the U.S.

More importantly, everyone moans (usually justifiably) about the French and the Germans, but the Israelis are supposedly these steadfast allies, our greatest supporters in the world. Sure they are.[/quote]

Yep. I’ve seen them.

The story references the flights from those hospitals to the US if I’m not mistaken.

29

[quote]JeffR wrote:
gdollars,

Thanks for that informative link. That irritates me that Israeli know how is being peddled to China.

Do you have a secondary link confirming this? I thank you in advance.

However, remember that palestine is in the wrong 100%. I used to have sympathy for palestinians.

That ended abrubtly when they started targeting civilians for bombing.

Using terrorism as a goal INVALIDATES whatever cause you fight for. No matter what it is. Period.

Now, if the palestinians would renounce terrorism, stop electing terrorist organizations to head the government, STOP TERRORISM against civilians, you wouldn’t find a more sympathetic proponent than myself.

However, as long as that is their tactic/strategy and dogma, then Israel receives 100% of my support.

JeffR[/quote]

At the risk of sounding like I’m condoning Palestinian terrorism, which I’m not, let’s get real for a second. Israel was established by terrorism, this is indisputable, read a good history of the Mandate and the Israeli War for Independence. The mujahideen fought the Soviets with terrorist tactics, I’m gonna guess you supported them.

Purposefully targeting civilians is reprehensible. But we did it in WWII, and I don’t think any sane person would argue that while that may have been wrong, we were the good guys in that war.

Also, something to think about: the Israelis kill 3.4 Palestinians for every Israeli lost, and the ratio is even worse in children, 5.7 to 1. The majority of these are innocent bystanders.

I don’t have a secondary link on the story, but Israeli military aid to China is common knowledge, and the Christian Science Monitor is one of the more unbiased news sources around. More people should read it.

30

[quote]lucasa wrote:
hedo wrote:

Some of these medical flights are non-stop from Iraq to Texas, where there are several major military hospitals.

All due respect to soldiers and servicemen and women and I’m not really defending the Europeans but… How injured can someone be that they’re treated on a non-stop flight from Iraq to Texas?

Has anybody died or suffered serious maladies because of this, or are we talking about air controllers needing to reroute decent amounts of air traffic vs. a nurse’s aid changing a dressing two more times?[/quote]

The most advanced evac aircraft are flying ICU’s.

Do you think American air traffic contollers would play games like that?

31

[quote]Cunnivore wrote:
The aircraft first flew in the mid-1990s and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006.
Source:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

What’s the problem again? Israel helped China advance their air force beyond bows and arrows? What’s it going to drop on us, besides lots and lots of chinese people, delivered with laser precision thanks to the guidance systems they got from Clinton et. al.? EVERYBODY PANIC! Let us know when they have a carrier.

[/quote]

Not to sound like a dick, but do you know anything about weapon development cycles? Especially with planes, plans and prototypes are laid down years, and sometimes decades, before the plane is fully operational.

You’re right that the J-10 doesn’t measure up to our best stuff, but that doesn’t change the fact that Israel is aiding a potential enemy of the United States, when we give them $3 billion a year, about $500 for every Israeli.

32

[quote]hedo wrote:
Other supposed allies…

The Europeans Win Some

February 14, 2007: Strategypage.com

European opposition to American efforts in Iraq is expressed in many little ways. For example, American transports flying badly wounded U.S. troops back to the United States, often ask European air controllers for a more direct flight path through European air space.

This is in order to get the wounded soldier or marine to the American hospital more quickly. This is particularly useful when the aircraft have been turned into a flying ECU (Emergency Care Unit), and doctors are actually treating the seriously wounded in flight.

The European air controllers rarely allow the direct flight. It would mean some more work for them, but saying “no” is another way to stick it to those bastards who removed Saddam Hussein from power, and continue to fight Iraqis who want to destroy democracy in Iraq.

When the American medical flight reaches American air space, air controllers are quick to give the transports the shortest possible route to its destination. Some of these medical flights are non-stop from Iraq to Texas, where there are several major military hospitals. [/quote]

Also, the feckless Europeans are still (though probably not for much longer) abiding by high-tech export controls to China we asked them to agree to after Tiananmen, to limit high-tech acquisitions that could aid the PLA. The Israelis, clearly, have no such qualms.

33

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Fisher, of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, says that of the fighters in service around the world, only the American F-22 Raptor, jointly produced by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the U.S. Air Force, would clearly outmatch the J-10.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/08/news/fighter.php?page=2

New immigrant: F22 stealth bomber?
World’s most advanced fighter jet currently only in US hands. After House of Representatives lifts ban on its sale, security establishment assesses jet may be offered to Israel.

China can’t wait…[/quote]

Great point. The F-22 is supposed to be the only next-generation fighter in the world, and plans are already being laid to sell it to Japan: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/02/selling_the_f22.asp . If it ends up in Israeli hands too in a few years, hard to see China not getting a look at one.

34

[quote]JeffR wrote:
By the way, most of the bad things Bush accused saddam of doing and planning were true.

I can see you now with your hands over your ears, “Bush is bad. Bush is bad. I can’t hear you. Bush is bad.”[/quote]

Ok. However then things that Bush (and his administration) was accused of doing also happened to be true.

Manipulating Intelligence anyone?

And just so you know, I don’t think he is bad. I think he is a total moron.

Completely different.

35

[quote]hedo wrote:

Do you think American air traffic contollers would play games like that?[/quote]

Part of the reason I was asking question. I know Lifeline choppers can get diverted for any number of reasons.

36

Two things worth discussing here:

  1. The Chinese are pretty pragmatic and don’t get themselves directly entangled in the religious/geopolitical mess that is the Middle East. They just want a more technically advanced fighter, and could probably care less where it comes from.

  2. With China’s ability to put 1 Million soldiers ON THE GROUND at any given time, while Israel may not consider China a “friend”, they CERTAINLY don’t want China to be an enemy.

Selling to China and keeping the lines of communication open are probably a pretty prudent thing to do.

(On another note about Chinese pragmatism…Damascus and Tehran most assuredly know that if their ideologies and conflicts spill over into China, they will be pounded back into the Middle Ages without hesitation…a fact that I’m sure Bejing has made VERY clear…)

Mufasa

37

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Two things worth discussing here:

  1. The Chinese are pretty pragmatic and don’t get themselves directly entangled in the religious/geopolitical mess that is the Middle East. They just want a more technically advanced fighter, and could probably care less where it comes from.

  2. With China’s ability to put 1 Million soldiers ON THE GROUND at any given time, while Israel may not consider China a “friend”, they CERTAINLY don’t want China to be an enemy.

Selling to China and keeping the lines of communication open are probably a pretty prudent thing to do.

(On another note about Chinese pragmatism…Damascus and Tehran most assuredly know that if their ideologies and conflicts spill over into China, they will be pounded back into the Middle Ages without hesitation…a fact that I’m sure Bejing has made VERY clear…)

Mufasa [/quote]

The US should send the same message to Tehran and Damascus, in clear terms. It’s the hesitation they count on.

38

[quote]hedo wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Two things worth discussing here:

  1. The Chinese are pretty pragmatic and don’t get themselves directly entangled in the religious/geopolitical mess that is the Middle East. They just want a more technically advanced fighter, and could probably care less where it comes from.

  2. With China’s ability to put 1 Million soldiers ON THE GROUND at any given time, while Israel may not consider China a “friend”, they CERTAINLY don’t want China to be an enemy.

Selling to China and keeping the lines of communication open are probably a pretty prudent thing to do.

(On another note about Chinese pragmatism…Damascus and Tehran most assuredly know that if their ideologies and conflicts spill over into China, they will be pounded back into the Middle Ages without hesitation…a fact that I’m sure Bejing has made VERY clear…)

Mufasa

The US should send the same message to Tehran and Damascus, in clear terms. It’s the hesitation they count on.

[/quote]

Hedo,

I can think of people on this board who wouldn’t approve of any overt action against the regimes in question. I guarantee that the dictators cultivate and are thrilled that they have frightened some Americans into inertia.

Imagine how happy said regimes are that there is Congressional displeasure at the troop increases. I suspect tehran/damascus can figure out that certain people put politics over principle. Imagine the glee knowing that our President is being undercut in time of war.

JeffR

39

hedo:

We have had the misfortune of the World knowing that our forces are stretched to the limit…

China has the ability to a) take an objective b) stabilize that objective AND c) occupy it without the need of unreliable “allies” and a stretched Military.

“The People’s Army” has the numbers to do it all themselves…

Mufasa

40

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
hedo:

We have had the misfortune of the World knowing that our forces are stretched to the limit…

China has the ability to a) take an objective b) stabilize that objective AND c) occupy it without the need of unreliable “allies” and a stretched Military.

“The People’s Army” has the numbers to do it all themselves…

Mufasa[/quote]

I’m sorry, but none of this is true. The key ingredient is logistics. China doesn’t really have a blue water navy, let alone an air transport fleet of any real worth. They may have a large army, but they couldn’t deploy any of it overseas, certainly not much farther than Taiwan. China does not have the ability to project power around the world, the military transport and supply lines needed simply don’t exist. The same goes for every single military in the world except that of America, and to a much smaller degree, Britain and France. That’s the list.

Plenty of countries have sizeable and sometimes even well-armed militaries, but their ability to project power far beyond their borders is severely limited.