Slavery Good?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]drag0n252pi wrote:
Logical fallacy is an oxymoronic phrase. Though I do agree with you that we do not know what it would have been like had the slave trade not flourished, but it did before Europeans got there, after and through all lands and cultures it exits or has existed. [/quote]

I’m not arguing that the slavery was unique here. It existed thousands of years before that, exists in parts of the world now, and will most likely exist for a long time to come. But it doesn’t make it right. And a sad fact is that there have been a lot of positive developments that probably could not have occured without a freepool of labor. But in each and every case, there have also been plenty of negative consequences. The transatlantic slave trade caused many problems in Africa and also resulted in some very negative repercussions that follow us to this day in the U.S.

102

Read the book The Race Myth written by a black professor. If blacks are so superior to white athletes then how come the dream team basketball team got their asses handed to them by white males? Please get a grip on reality. All black men can’t jump.

103

[quote]drag0n252pi wrote:
I don’t recall saying that their culture did not run efficiently, it did within their on tribe or confederacies such as the Seneca Nations, but they were still primitives.[/quote]

According to whom and why? I don’t consider Native Americans “primitives” so why do you?

104

[quote]drag0n252pi wrote:
Thank you for serving, I mean that. But the US military also participated when we were in Kosovo in the female slave trade via prostitution knowing full well that these women were taken by force from thie home countries. Read the book The Natasha’s. Yes, my comment was directed at you. I applaud your efforts to help the poor but dont run down our society because we have a higher, better, more toys standard of living even with all our problems. [/quote]

Run down our society? By not acting as if many of the problems you listed don’t exist in our own country? What blind world are you living in where it is “un-american” to note our own faults?

105

Finally someone who doesn’t base their statements on myths. If blacks were a separate race then according to biology they would be a different species. Usually when two different species are able to reproduce the resulting offspring are sterile. But, we know that hasn’t happened with cross breeding od persons with different genetic makeup from ours (meaning each individual)

106

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:

Excellent reply. There are several social research stdies conducted over the last 50+ years that support your post. This idea of selective breeding of blacks is simply an unfounded myth.[/quote]

Thank you.

107

[quote]drag0n252pi wrote:
Finally someone who doesn’t base their statements on myths. If blacks were a separate race then according to biology they would be a different species. Usually when two different species are able to reproduce the resulting offspring are sterile. But, we know that hasn’t happened with cross breeding od persons with different genetic makeup from ours (meaning each individual)[/quote]

Yes-the biological concept of race is a fallacy. There are certainly variations between human beings. Such as skin color, body type, susceptibily to certain diseases. These are mostly a function of geography and hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and adaptation to a particular habitat. And there is actually more genetic variabilty within so-called races than between them.

108

Here’s a link to a Anthropology pprofessor’s notes:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:E5RmtPyTeoIJ:www.abdn.ac.uk/anthropology/notes/Level1/AT1002/at1002.lecture08.doc+selective+breeding+of+slaves&hl=en&client=firefox-a

This is just a blurb supporting my contention that slaves were bred like farm animals - not for their ability to think -

In effect, slaves were regarded as no different from domestic animals, apart from the facts that they could speak and moved on two legs rather than four!

You asked for proof - you have it. Slaves were bred like animals. In fact there are published cases of slaveowners being in the slave breeding business. Why? It was more profitable than farming.

I’m sure YOU can look it up in the library as you have chided me to do.

109

Never said it was bad. Personally I would love to live in the woods but I would want to know that I can get to a store and it will be stocked and get excellent medical attention. You are right hind sight is 20-20

110

[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
I agree in part with your analysis on physical fitness as a sociological issue. I agree that the challenges African Americans faced forced them to over-emphasize physical prowess, but the reason (I believe) that they were successful is genetics. Not saying you are wrong, simply saying that the reason African Americans are generally good athletes is a multi-facited formula. This formula does; however, include all the points you made about social structure and discrimination.[/quote]

Where is the evidence for this? What studies? Structured in what way? Mesuring what? Determining genetics how? Measuring what athletic attributes? Your saying it and the fact that a high percentage of top athletes are African American doesn’t make it so.

111

Boy you sure are defensive. I was a cop for 25 years did narcotics work and homicide. I saw the worst that humanity had to offer so please get off your grand stand and stop telling me I turn a blind eye to the problems. I was part of the solution just as you were in the military. prim?i?tive (prm-tv) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Not derived from something else; primary or basic.

Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval.
Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.
Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons. See Synonyms at rude.
Anthropology Of or relating to a nonindustrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by a low level of economic complexity: primitive societies.
Linguistics

Just in case you were unsure of the meaning.

112

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Here’s a link to a Anthropology pprofessor’s notes:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:E5RmtPyTeoIJ:www.abdn.ac.uk/anthropology/notes/Level1/AT1002/at1002.lecture08.doc+selective+breeding+of+slaves&hl=en&client=firefox-a

This is just a blurb supporting my contention that slaves were bred like farm animals - not for their ability to think -

In effect, slaves were regarded as no different from domestic animals, apart from the facts that they could speak and moved on two legs rather than four!

You asked for proof - you have it. Slaves were bred like animals. In fact there are published cases of slaveowners being in the slave breeding business. Why? It was more profitable than farming.

I’m sure YOU can look it up in the library as you have chided me to do. [/quote]

Rainjack, this doesn’t prove anything. You are right that slaves weren’t valued for their intellectual capacity. But VIEWING the slaves as animals and in terms of how much work they could do speaks to nothing of actual breeding. Up until imporation of slaves stopped, there was no control of sexual intercourse among slaves. Once it stopped, there was very little regulation of sexual intercourse and reproduction among slaves. Show me something that says otherwise.

113

Slavery STILL EXISTS.

It’s just been OUTSOURCED.

In the world today we have factories in which the workers are forced to work, kept in a harsh environment with inadequate ventilation, workers are sometimes be abused physically, mentally, or sexually, are subjected to long hours, harsh or unsafe conditions, are not paid a living wage, and are children.

This is slavery.

http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/antislavery/modern.htm

http://www.antislavery.org/index.htm

I feel like it’s pretty safe to say that most of the civilizations that have risen to great heights over history did it on the back of slaves.

Who built the pyramids?

Who performed all the labor in Ancient Greece while Western civilization was being founded?

How were many of the ancient armies populated?

How did the navies and ships “recruit” their crews? (To Shanghai - what a concept!)

How did America start its rise to the level of world power with its cotton, textiles, etc?

I hardly think any of this means that the SLAVES have anything to be thankful for. That is an insane perspective.

Do the rich and powerful have something to be thankful for? Certainly - they built their empires on the backs of slaves! They did it thousands of years ago and they continue to do it to this very minute on this very day.

However, I think it can certainly be argued that the world has plenty to be grateful for thanks to slavery. If the Greeks didn’t have slaves performing the both the menial and the skilled physical work, then the leisure class would not have been free to innovate areas of mathematics, philosophy, the theater, DEMOCRACY, medicine, and I’m sure countless other ideas that form the foundation of our very society.

A slave class or labour class was always in place while the leisure class was off developing the various arts (arts used in the traditional sense - including scientific thought).

Does this make slavery right? No. But it shows that it was certainly useful. If you’re the type who feels the ends justify the means, you can rationalize away the exploitation and lack of human dignity I suppose.

To summarize my point (1) Slaves or descendants of slaves have nothing to be thankful for, but society itself does owe a great debt to those whose backs were used to build it (2) Slavery is alive and well today and we shouldn’t be treating it as some historic relic we should be trying to end it once and for all.

114

Again, JSBROOK, I agree with what you have said but to deny breeding is moronic. If you would like me to spend time finding specific works which study this I will be more than happy to oblige and get back to you tomorrow. I did not mean to get confrontational with you on this subject but apparently I did. I thought I stated clearly that it was observational. I have lived in this world with open eyes and bore witness to thousands of sporting events and met thousands of other athletes. From MY experience and my knowledge of general breeding practices I have come to the conclusion that African Americans were originally bred to be physical people. To deny that slave owners preferred a slave that was physically superior is simply idiotic. Take a dog for instance, and in no way do I mean to refer to African Americans as similar to dogs but they were treated similarly. A dog breader only breeds the dogs more likely to produce strong and fertile offspring. Why? So that future generations will do the same and produce a fruitful bloodline. My personal OBSERVATION is similar with the slave trade. It would be an act of idiocy to pay money for a worker with inferior physical abilities; therefore, a line of physically strong humans was produced. This was further compounded by the discrimination and hardships African Americans faced which forced them into a situation clarified by your statement. “There is a huge confound with lifestyle and practices. It is an unfortuante fact that many African Americans are poor and underprivileged and don’t have access to good education. Sports and the entertainment industry is seen as a way out of bad situations and is pursued”

Again I did not mean to offend or confront you with my observational opinion. I will seek more specific facts so as not to offend you further.

115

John K, I agree with everything you said. But, as I said in my previous post, I think slavery has led to plenty of negative consequences for society as whole in addition to the ways it has benefited it.

116

Gianacakos, I’m not offended. I would be interested in some more detailed information. I headed for DC for a few days later tonight, but I’ll definitely take a look when I get back. Africans lived a physcial lifestyle back in Africa. This continued under slave labor. Of couse, slave owners wanted the hardiest slaves possible. But that doesn’t mean there was any selective breeding going on. From everything I’ve read, there was very little control of sexual intercourse and reproduction among slaves. What you say that African Americans may be superior in the attributes that make great athletes still may be true. But if it is, I think it happened because of natural means. The hardiest and best physical specimens (I hate to use that word) survived the voyage to America, which was hell. Those were also the people who survived the rigors of slavery. I say this MAY be true. By sheer observation, it seems likely. But I haven’t seen any studies that have adequately applied and appropriate methods that would somehow test this. It would be very difficult to determine this because of different approaches to athletics and education and lifestyle differences between the African Americans as a people and whites as a people. The best way that I can think of doing this would be to test fast-twitch muscles, slow-twitch muscles, strength, endurance, VO2 max, agility, coordination, etc… among black and white 1. professional athletes, 2. non-professional athletes and exercisers, and 3. the sedentary of both races. Very hard to do.

117

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Rainjack, this doesn’t prove anything. You are right that slaves weren’t valued for their intellectual capacity. But VIEWING the slaves as animals and in terms of how much work they could do speaks to nothing of actual breeding. Up until imporation of slaves stopped, there was no control of sexual intercourse among slaves. Once it stopped, there was very little regulation of sexual intercourse and reproduction among slaves. Show me something that says otherwise.
[/quote]

It proves that slaves were bred like animals, not for their brains, but for the work they were expected to perform. I have been told at least one time to look it up myself on this thread. Search for some of Alan Keyes’ writings. I’m not sure why I need to be your research source.

118

drag0n252pi:

Since you’re responding to several people, please use the quote function. That would be the second icon to the right of each message. It’s near impossible to figure out who or what you’re addressing.

Re your avatar: do you wife and children know you dress like that?

119

[quote]TeeVee69 wrote:

Re your avatar: do you wife and children know you dress like that?[/quote]

If they do, I’m sure they don’t live with him anymore.

120

[quote]rancho wrote:
Well are not the Good Southern White Folk at least solely responsible for what they did afther Slavery, what about the practice under which whites, motivated by extreme racism, would attack black Americans in myriad brutal ways to control them. Between 1882 and 1901, more than 100 people were lynched each year in the United States, and the great majority of them were southern African Americans–numbering nearly 2,000 men and boys killed in those two decades. The wave of mob murder continued unabated in the first two decades of the 20th century, numbering nearly 4,000 people by 1932, before tapering off in the 1930s and 1940s. Two or three people were lynched every week in the nation for over 30 years. Whites used mob violence and lynching to control all kinds of black behavior, from voting to manners and attitudes. Most lynchings happened in rural area and small towns whereas mob violence took place in cities. People were brutally murdered by being hung, burned, beaten, mutilated, dragged behind wagons, and other acts of savage torture. In most cases, the local police allowed the lynchings to occur, and witnesses often included the entire white community. In many cases, the victim’s body was cut up for souvenirs. Lynchings were usually justified as community responses to black assaults on white women. In fact, the vast majority of such attacks involved no alleged rape at all, and, typically, the black victims were men and some women who were politically active or economically successful. Many were innocent bystanders who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Blacks responded by launching a national movement to pressure Congress to pass Federal anti-lynching legislation, but these legislative attempts suffered defeat year after year due to the power of southern white senators.

please respond with answer![/quote]

I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you answer my question first? Wanna blame whitey for all of the black man’s problems, go ahead. But in the comfort of your self-righteousness, please tell me why it was so much more wrong for white people to own slaves than it was for free black people to own them

Additionally, you are talking about the aftermath of emancipation, not slavery itself. Two different animals.

Just so you’re not overly confused about what I am asking, I’ll ask it again: WHy is there nothing said about the black slaveowners? Why is it all the fault of the Southern white man?

Why is there no blame placed on the black africans that sold their brothers into slavery?

I’m not answering another one of your racist, blame the white man for all of it questions until you answer the questions I have already asked