Shugart's 'Gay Basher' Article

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
282

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
NickViar,

This should be easy to explain. I shall address your points.

1 If you are concerned with convenience… I did not choose my house, nor my employment based on pharmacies in the area. I did not always have the same medical conditions as the day I bought my house. I am now blind and unable to drive. I could probably make a much more extensive list of why the person in this example is not an idiot, merely a victim of circumstance.

  1. Keep your legs closed… Nice answer. My doctor prescribed the pill as a cancer preventative. To relieve my Endometriosis. To relieve my PCOS. There are more but you get the point. I cleverly hid the fact that many women are prescribed the pill for reasons other than birth control by stating that exact thing and hiding the words in parentheses (literary camouflage) you probably miseed that as well, I said literary camouflage.

  2. Your local Quiklube sounds awesome, I have a Shih_tzu named Gracie, I only mention that because I gather we are at a point in this conversation where we say stupid shit unrelated to the issue.
    [/quote]

  3. Oh, yes, we have arrived at the true progressive destination: I didn’t think that things would ever change when I made my choice; it’s not right that I have to live with my choice; everyone else is responsible for my choice.

  4. Luckily for me, that wasn’t the only option I presented to the woman unable to obtain birth control at her local pharmacy. I understand that people use that stuff for other reasons, and that’s why I offered other options.

  5. Your dog comment truly was stupid; however, my QuikLube comment was not. My “QuikLube” works on cars(the pharmacy fills prescriptions) but refuses to rebuild my engine(provide birth control pills).

283

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

Your belief in Jesus is a choice. You think getting hard looking at another guy’s sweaty ballsack is a choice…

[/quote]

Now sweaty ballsack infatuation by another man is a choice, huh? Make up your mind.[/quote]

No. He said that YOU think it’s a choice, not that he did.

Do you actually know gay people? I mean, KNOW them? Have you ever sat down with one and talked to them about their ‘choice’?

284

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
NickViar,

This should be easy to explain. I shall address your points.

1 If you are concerned with convenience… I did not choose my house, nor my employment based on pharmacies in the area. I did not always have the same medical conditions as the day I bought my house. I am now blind and unable to drive. I could probably make a much more extensive list of why the person in this example is not an idiot, merely a victim of circumstance.

  1. Keep your legs closed… Nice answer. My doctor prescribed the pill as a cancer preventative. To relieve my Endometriosis. To relieve my PCOS. There are more but you get the point. I cleverly hid the fact that many women are prescribed the pill for reasons other than birth control by stating that exact thing and hiding the words in parentheses (literary camouflage) you probably miseed that as well, I said literary camouflage.

  2. Your local Quiklube sounds awesome, I have a Shih_tzu named Gracie, I only mention that because I gather we are at a point in this conversation where we say stupid shit unrelated to the issue.
    [/quote]

  3. Oh, yes, we have arrived at the true progressive destination: I didn’t think that things would ever change when I made my choice; it’s not right that I have to live with my choice; everyone else is responsible for my choice.

  4. Luckily for me, that wasn’t the only option I presented to the woman unable to obtain birth control at her local pharmacy. I understand that people use that stuff for other reasons, and that’s why I offered other options.

  5. Your dog comment truly was stupid; however, my QuikLube comment was not. My “QuikLube” works on cars(the pharmacy fills prescriptions) but refuses to rebuild my engine(provide birth control pills).[/quote]

Nick,

  1. What if she lived in the town for years and the pharmacy was sold to a new owner and that person decided to not sell BCP’s due to his beliefs? I assume that is okay with you. Much like if your company was sold to a new employer and they decided to fire all Christians or Atheists or whatever you may be. That would also be okay (because it is what they believe in).

  2. You did not provide alternative options for the woman being prescribed BCP’s for other medical conditions. You suggested moving, that is not always a viable option.

  3. A quiklube advertises itself as a place to change oil, not rebuild engines, a pharmacy advertises as a place to fill prescriptions and pay too much for paper towels, it doesn’t advertise as a place run by judgy assholes that refuse to fill medical prescriptions for common womens issues because they’re possibly contributing to something they don’t believe in. My dog thinks your analogy sucks.

If you actually believe this is okay, that’s fine. I am sure you would be okay with a national organization pressuring pharma companies to stop providing prescriptions to these alleged christian pharmacies as well (thereby shutting them down) unless they change their rules (or is that a war on christians?)

Push,

Great non-answer, when you hit 100,000 posts will they put your name on a building? That’s really the only reason I can imagine posting that much nonsense.

285

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

They would figuratively and probably literally be destroyed by society.[/quote]

Similarly to what’s happening to these bakeries? Do you think it’s “right”?
[/quote]

No, not similarly at all. The government is trying to destroy the business by levying an absurd fine. The people have actually raised enough money to save their business. The same thing happened with that Pizzeria.

[quote]magick wrote:
Suppose a Muslim chose to deny service to any woman who isn’t wearing a hijab, because that offends his/her religious sensibilities.

By your argument, there’s nothing wrong with this. The Muslim is simply following what his/her religions dictates. [/quote]

There is nothing wrong with that.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

So? Consumers would determine if they agree or not with their dollars.[/quote]

I think you missed my point.

If one has to respect a religion, then one has to respect all religions, and everything you seem to think this entails. This is a very dangerous rabbit-hole to go down into. [/quote]

No, I didn’t. There is no dangerous rabbit-hole. Christian bakers refusing to provide a cake for a gay wedding ceremony does not harm the gay couple in any real way. A Muslim refusing to serve a woman not dressed in a hijab does not harm a woman in any real way. Further, society as a whole will ostracize these businesses if they think what they are doing in wrong and that business will suffer most likely to the point of closure.

[quote]magick wrote:
I think you’re fine with it only because it’s Christians that are being publicy “oppressed” right now.[/quote]

Nope, I’m fine with it because I believe people should be free to act as they see fit and reap the benefits and/or the consequences of their actions.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are advocating for the government to compel a small business, through force or threat of force, to provide a service that directly violates their religious belief and your okay with that? I think that’s silly. [/quote]

Wanna bet a thousand actual U.S. dollars that I’ve never once actually wrote on this site that I agree with the gay people on this bakery stuff?

And, no, I vehemently oppose special minority rights. [/quote]

I stand corrected. It certainly seemed that way.

[quote]magick wrote:
Edit-

Honestly, I’m arguing mostly because I don’t think the argument that Christians need to be protected because they believe in X is a particularly good argument.[/quote]

I’m not arguing that Christian’s should be protected because they believe in X. I’m arguing that Christian’s should not be forced by the government to do X because it directly violates belief X.

287

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Pony sweetheart, what’s with the hard-on for my post count? Every other post or two by you in regards to me reveals your obsession.

Interesting.[/quote]

I think Freud would say that he has “post envy”.

288

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
Nick,

  1. What if she lived in the town for years and the pharmacy was sold to a new owner and that person decided to not sell BCP’s due to his beliefs? I assume that is okay with you. Much like if your company was sold to a new employer and they decided to fire all Christians or Atheists or whatever you may be. That would also be okay (because it is what they believe in).

  2. You did not provide alternative options for the woman being prescribed BCP’s for other medical conditions. You suggested moving, that is not always a viable option.

  3. A quiklube advertises itself as a place to change oil, not rebuild engines, a pharmacy advertises as a place to fill prescriptions and pay too much for paper towels, it doesn’t advertise as a place run by judgy assholes that refuse to fill medical prescriptions for common womens issues because they’re possibly contributing to something they don’t believe in. My dog thinks your analogy sucks.

If you actually believe this is okay, that’s fine. I am sure you would be okay with a national organization pressuring pharma companies to stop providing prescriptions to these alleged christian pharmacies as well (thereby shutting them down) unless they change their rules (or is that a war on christians?)
[/quote]

  1. Circumstances change. Is a black family allowed to move in next door to an old, white racist whose family has lived in the same house for 130 years? Personally, I believe it is and should be. An employer should be permitted to hire and fire anyone he/she/it desires and for any reason.

  2. Moving or driving to the nearest pharmacy are certainly options. Let’s come up with the goofiest scenario possible: A blind, deaf, mute, quadriplegic, mentally retarded lady needs birth control to survive, but the only pharmacy within 500 miles(make this light years if you prefer) refuses to fill her prescription. She should probably allow the person that wrote the prescription to sell her home and place her in an assisted living facility closer to civilization. If this lady is unwilling to make the changes necessary for her survival, there is still no reason that the pharmacy should be forced to provide her birth control(but I have a feeling that the owner of the pharmacy would make an exception for her in the real world).

  3. It seems that the pharmacy in question advertises itself as a place that does NOT fill birth control prescriptions.

Yes, I would be just fine with a national organization(so long as it’s not the federal government-hell, I actually don’t care if it does either) pressuring pharmaceutical companies to stop filling prescriptions at any pharmacy it wishes. However, with this being a Christian nation(note that I did not say “Christian government”), I doubt that would work out very well for it.

290

Nick,

Thank you for the response, I sort of expected you to go a different way, but you surprised me with your well thought out explanation of your beliefs.

It seems that you clearly oppose government interfering in privately owned businesses, and I can accept that, because after all it’s 2015 and we all hate the government.

However your belief system allows segregation, discrimination, racism, sexism and really whatever other -ism you feel like throwing in. If I live in rural Mississippi and all the business owners decide not to serve blacks, you are okay with that. In fact you seem to think that any discrimination is really just a problem for the people being discriminated against and that they should either move or do business elsewhere (because that is always an option), and that the government forcing businesses to NOT discriminate, is somehow…wrong?

Maybe I misunderstood your stance but it seems to me that you think these things will just “work themselves out”.

Push,

You can do it. Just keep posting.

292

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
Nick,

Thank you for the response, I sort of expected you to go a different way, but you surprised me with your well thought out explanation of your beliefs.

It seems that you clearly oppose government interfering in privately owned businesses, and I can accept that, because after all it’s 2015 and we all hate the government. [/quote]
I think that a government, at its best, exists to protects its citizens and their properties. If a government harms its citizens and/or violates their property rights, I believe that it has ceased to have any claim to goodness/value to “the people.”

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
However your belief system allows segregation, discrimination, racism, sexism and really whatever other -ism you feel like throwing in. If I live in rural Mississippi and all the business owners decide not to serve blacks, you are okay with that. In fact you seem to think that any discrimination is really just a problem for the people being discriminated against and that they should either move or do business elsewhere (because that is always an option), and that the government forcing businesses to NOT discriminate, is somehow…wrong?

Maybe I misunderstood your stance but it seems to me that you think these things will just “work themselves out”.
[/quote]
Yes, my political belief system permits all of those -isms. My political belief system does not permit property rights violations(and I believe that each human has a property right in his own person-he must, in order for any right to exist). That’s it. I am perfectly willing to accept private discrimination because the alternative is far worse. If I ask an entity to “save” me from the way another uses his property, then I have to realize that I am also agreeing to let that entity “save” others from the way I use my property(and, if that entity is the state, I will be making a decision which will bind my descendents until that state is eliminated).

Humans are humans, so a market solution will produce some bad results. A state also produces bad results. I just believe that a free market will right itself far easier and faster than a state.

294

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

  1. What if she lived in the town for years and the pharmacy was sold to a new owner and that person decided to not sell BCP’s due to his beliefs?

[/quote]

Clearly from your “description” this is anything but a normal town you’re building, but I would hope that your fictitious little city would have a public library with internet service?

Then again, perhaps UPS doesn’t deliver to such “unique” locales…[/quote]

Chushin,

Big picture. Forest for the trees. I’m not sure which cliche is necessary to get people to focus on the issue (discrimination) rather than the example (born again owned pharmacy in the sticks that hates women). I can replace women with blacks and pharmacy with diner and BCP’s with a sandwich and a coke (not that the black guy will get them because the owner says “no blacks allowed”). Seriously this should not be that hard to follow. People on this board keep telling the victim in this made-up situation to just “go somewhere else”, am I the only one that sees this as an issue?

296

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

  1. What if she lived in the town for years and the pharmacy was sold to a new owner and that person decided to not sell BCP’s due to his beliefs?

[/quote]

Clearly from your “description” this is anything but a normal town you’re building, but I would hope that your fictitious little city would have a public library with internet service?

Then again, perhaps UPS doesn’t deliver to such “unique” locales…[/quote]

Chushin,

Big picture. Forest for the trees. I’m not sure which cliche is necessary to get people to focus on the issue (discrimination) rather than the example (born again owned pharmacy in the sticks that hates women). I can replace women with blacks and pharmacy with diner and BCP’s with a sandwich and a coke (not that the black guy will get them because the owner says “no blacks allowed”). Seriously this should not be that hard to follow. People on this board keep telling the victim in this made-up situation to just “go somewhere else”, am I the only one that sees this as an issue?
[/quote]

Hey, it was YOUR example.

And I really wish you’d stop equating widely-recognized, sacred-text-based religious beliefs with simple bigotry. [/quote]

Chushin,

Yes because widely recognized sacred text based religious beliefs are never working hand in hand with bigotry. Crusades. ISIS. The Holocaust (Hitler may not have been religious but his propaganda sure was). Yes I know these are extreme examples, but I am responding to YOUR example.

298

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:

  1. What if she lived in the town for years and the pharmacy was sold to a new owner and that person decided to not sell BCP’s due to his beliefs?

[/quote]

Clearly from your “description” this is anything but a normal town you’re building, but I would hope that your fictitious little city would have a public library with internet service?

Then again, perhaps UPS doesn’t deliver to such “unique” locales…[/quote]

Chushin,

Big picture. Forest for the trees. I’m not sure which cliche is necessary to get people to focus on the issue (discrimination) rather than the example (born again owned pharmacy in the sticks that hates women). I can replace women with blacks and pharmacy with diner and BCP’s with a sandwich and a coke (not that the black guy will get them because the owner says “no blacks allowed”). Seriously this should not be that hard to follow. People on this board keep telling the victim in this made-up situation to just “go somewhere else”, am I the only one that sees this as an issue?
[/quote]

Hey, it was YOUR example.

And I really wish you’d stop equating widely-recognized, sacred-text-based religious beliefs with simple bigotry. [/quote]

Chushin,

Yes because widely recognized sacred text based religious beliefs are never working hand in hand with bigotry. Crusades. ISIS. The Holocaust (Hitler may not have been religious but his propaganda sure was). Yes I know these are extreme examples, but I am responding to YOUR example.[/quote]

LOL.

“Conflate.”

Look it up.[/quote]

Chushin,

I see that in your world tossing LOL and saying check the dictionary means something didn’t happen. That’s some solid reasoning. If people have not used widely recognized sacred text religious beliefs to perpetrate large scale atrocities based in part on dehumanizing groups that are different than them, feel free to correct me. I am not saying that is what the texts are designed for, much like cars are not designed to be used to run over ex-girlfriends, sometimes it just happens, sometimes a tool is misused.

299

[quote]Chushin wrote:
And I really wish you’d stop equating widely-recognized, sacred-text-based religious beliefs with simple bigotry. [/quote]

In fairness, Southerners used the Bible to justify slavery. I can make an easy argument that religious objections to gay marriage are more firmly rooted in the text of the Bible than are justifications of slavery, but birth control is not directly mentioned in the Bible, so far as I am aware (the closest thing would probably be Onan). It is a case of people reading it in. I am somewhat sympathetic to the argument that you shouldn’t have to do business in ways that make you uncomfortable, but I think those invoking religion do so either disingenuously or ignorantly.

300

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
People on this board keep telling the victim in this made-up situation to just “go somewhere else”, am I the only one that sees this as an issue?
[/quote]

No, you’re not.

On the other hand, everyone needs to be able to eat, get housing, and receive medical care. Everyone doesn’t need access to wedding cakes.