[quote]The Mage wrote:
I extended your concept, and obviously it went over your head. It goes way further then you think.[/quote]
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The Mage wrote:
I extended your concept, and obviously it went over your head. It goes way further then you think.
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?[/quote]
You should stop. You are embarrassing yourself.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The Mage wrote:
I extended your concept, and obviously it went over your head. It goes way further then you think.
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?
You should stop. You are embarrassing yourself.[/quote]
How did a discussion on how to punish/deal with criminals get sucked into the philosophical vortex of ‘nothing exists unless we give it meaning in our frame of reference’ b.s.? I mean, that’s all well and good over some tea or beers or pot, but come on now - how long were you waiting to spring that one on us?
This is the wondrous thing about internet message boards…regardless of ‘where’ they reside (for example, most people would not expect to find this sort of discussion on a ‘bodybuilding’ site…but there are always those people that will steer a conversation to something THEY want to talk about.
It doesn’t work in real life, it ain’t working here, Descartes!
On the positive side, this guy has an AMAZING set of personal best lifts, because the weights he puts up “don’t exist as anything more than an idea”.
[quote]LightsOutLuthor wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The Mage wrote:
I extended your concept, and obviously it went over your head. It goes way further then you think.
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?
You should stop. You are embarrassing yourself.
How did a discussion on how to punish/deal with criminals get sucked into the philosophical vortex of ‘nothing exists unless we give it meaning in our frame of reference’ b.s.? I mean, that’s all well and good over some tea or beers or pot, but come on now - how long were you waiting to spring that one on us?
This is the wondrous thing about internet message boards…regardless of ‘where’ they reside (for example, most people would not expect to find this sort of discussion on a ‘bodybuilding’ site…but there are always those people that will steer a conversation to something THEY want to talk about.
It doesn’t work in real life, it ain’t working here, Descartes!
On the positive side, this guy has an AMAZING set of personal best lifts, because the weights he puts up “don’t exist as anything more than an idea”.
[/quote]
Liftucus has a bad habit of doing this. I think he is actually thinking these thoughts for the first time and he thinks they are deep. I like to tease him about it.
[quote]Electric_E wrote:
I think ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is an outdated concept and it’s time to start getting radical and pro active.
[/quote]
[quote]NateOrade wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
I think ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is an outdated concept and it’s time to start getting radical and pro active.
[/quote]
Yeah, cuz I really want to have my property seized until they can ‘prove’ I didn’t steal it.
And all of my single friends can be accused and imprisoned for rape if the one night stand they have ever decides to ‘change her mind’ on the details of the evening.
And I’d like to get a fine EVERY time I speed without being cited for what I did.
I’d also like to be fined for every piece of litter that blows into my yard, since the assumption that I put it there and not the wind holds under your regime.
As I said earlier, these laws may sound TOUGH and sound like something it’ll take care of the bad guys, but it’s like the gun laws here in the US…it hurts the law-keepers.
If I am a criminal and don’t care about USING a gun in a violent crime, do I really worry about obtaining that gun through a legal channel? Then who does it affect? Those that WILL follow the rules and fill out the paperwork.
All your idea has produced is another black market item: forged receipts and pay stubs. It’s called money laundering - I can MAKE my ill-gotten gains look legitimate. Why do you think it’s so hard to pin down the mafia?
[quote]Electric_E wrote:
I am would like to know your thoughts on this.
I personally think there should be a law that allows the government/police to confiscate property and money from people that have no legitimate proof of how it was acquired legally.
Let’s say for example:
You have a 20 year old kid who is a drug dealer, never worked in his life never paid taxes, and has no record of inheriting money or a lottery win for example. The police know he is a drug dealer but do not have enough to pin him for it (which is so often the case nowadays)
This kid is driving around in a very expensive car and has a nice place to live and a lot of spending money.
Personally I think the police should be able to confiscate his property and car etc. and unless the kid can show how he earned the money to pay for it all LEGITAMATLY then he does not get it back.
What do you think?
Too extreme? Could it possibly work? Are there any countries that do similar?
Cheers
[/quote]
…they do this over here for a few years already, they call it 'pick ‘m clean’ and if they can make a solid case, they do pick 'm clean. It’s not so much of a deterrent, but literally/figuretively payback for crimes committed…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
I am would like to know your thoughts on this.
I personally think there should be a law that allows the government/police to confiscate property and money from people that have no legitimate proof of how it was acquired legally.
Let’s say for example:
You have a 20 year old kid who is a drug dealer, never worked in his life never paid taxes, and has no record of inheriting money or a lottery win for example. The police know he is a drug dealer but do not have enough to pin him for it (which is so often the case nowadays)
This kid is driving around in a very expensive car and has a nice place to live and a lot of spending money.
Personally I think the police should be able to confiscate his property and car etc. and unless the kid can show how he earned the money to pay for it all LEGITAMATLY then he does not get it back.
What do you think?
Too extreme? Could it possibly work? Are there any countries that do similar?
Cheers
…they do this over here for a few years already, they call it 'pick ‘m clean’ and if they can make a solid case, they do pick 'm clean. It’s not so much of a deterrent, but literally/figuretively payback for crimes committed…
[/quote]
Does it require a conviction?
Bang! see the fucking Dutch know how to do shit right.
[quote]LightsOutLuthor wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
I think ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is an outdated concept and it’s time to start getting radical and pro active.
Yeah, cuz I really want to have my property seized until they can ‘prove’ I didn’t steal it.
And all of my single friends can be accused and imprisoned for rape if the one night stand they have ever decides to ‘change her mind’ on the details of the evening.
And I’d like to get a fine EVERY time I speed without being cited for what I did.
I’d also like to be fined for every piece of litter that blows into my yard, since the assumption that I put it there and not the wind holds under your regime.
As I said earlier, these laws may sound TOUGH and sound like something it’ll take care of the bad guys, but it’s like the gun laws here in the US…it hurts the law-keepers.
If I am a criminal and don’t care about USING a gun in a violent crime, do I really worry about obtaining that gun through a legal channel? Then who does it affect? Those that WILL follow the rules and fill out the paperwork.
All your idea has produced is another black market item: forged receipts and pay stubs. It’s called money laundering - I can MAKE my ill-gotten gains look legitimate. Why do you think it’s so hard to pin down the mafia?
[/quote]
Spot fucking on!
[quote]Anonymous Coward wrote:
In fact, now that I think about it, I seem to remember hearing that confiscation laws that are part of the US “War on Drugs” are routinely abused by police officers and departments. I’ll try to remember exactly where I heard/read this.
[/quote]
I’m actually in an industry that is affected by just this kind of abuse.
Thing is, when the government decides to seize your assets until you can prove yourself innocent…YOU HAVE NO ASSETS TO PROVE YOUR CASE.
AND THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS THIS.
It’s pretty easy to convict someone when they can’t afford a lawyer. So they’ll throw charges at you until you cry uncle and sign over your assets in a plea bargain.
In other words: Payday for the government.
OP, you sound bitter. Drug dealer is a job and a dangerous one. You know those guys life expectancy is pretty low. I prefer leading a quiet life, legally working and paying taxes than being a thug. I don’t envy those guys.
Seriously you have a point though I don’t agree with.
BTW authorites won’t accept that kind of law because it’s not good for the business. Thugs re-inject a massive amount of money into the market by buying a bunch of things…
The Dutch are a highly intelligent people and learn well from their ‘Big Neighbor’.
“The proceedings before the special courts was under the maxim utmost speed. The served the abolition of the criminal justice from constitutional grounds introduced screening and opening of the decision and the initials of the charge period to 24 hours. The chairman of the Court could itself against the suspect arrest warrant. Later, even the appeal against this decision, which was only to the Special Court itself could be, so to the ruling body, the one who listened to the arrest warrant had abolished. The special court had discretion whether and what evidence is proving the Tatvorwurfs wanted to collect. The offender against the judgement had no legal means possible. Only the prosecutor, the so-called nullity complaint, but almost always only to the detriment of the convicted took place.”
…yes, altough the justice department can also join up with the IRS to investigate persons who appear to live above their means without an apparent crime committed…
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?[/quote]
If you truly understand science, you must understand that everything is a theory. Even the most proved scientific theory is still just a theory.
We do not actually deal with reality, but our interpretation of it through our senses.
As a result can never truely know reality, we will always be stuck in the “abstract”.
“Cogito Ergo Sum” is the only thing we can truly prove. (Had to put that one in for another post.)
I once read about companies that would import “stuff”, not pay the import tax, let the “stuff” get confiscated, and simply buy it back at the government auction.
Why? Because it was cheaper to do that then pay the import tax.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
No you didn’t extend anthing useful at all. I don’t think you really understand because you use money as an example. This is obviously incorrect because it had to exist as a real commodity before it could be used as an exchange medium. The concept of money may be abstract but it is a very real thing.
Don’t you have D&D tourney to get to?
If you truly understand science, you must understand that everything is a theory. Even the most proved scientific theory is still just a theory.
We do not actually deal with reality, but our interpretation of it through our senses.
As a result can never truely know reality, we will always be stuck in the “abstract”.
“Cogito Ergo Sum” is the only thing we can truly prove. (Had to put that one in for another post.)[/quote]
And as I said above…it’s great to sit around and be philosophical, but how ‘abstract’ is that weight you’re putting up? Your thought does no good in the ‘reality’ we’re all living in, whether or not you like the norms we’ve set up and what we’ve collectively over time given value to, Neo.
(I’m a physicist by degree, BTW…so I ‘get’ what you’re saying, but wrong time, wrong discussion man)
[quote]LightsOutLuthor wrote:
And as I said above…it’s great to sit around and be philosophical, but how ‘abstract’ is that weight you’re putting up? Your thought does no good in the ‘reality’ we’re all living in, whether or not you like the norms we’ve set up and what we’ve collectively over time given value to, Neo.
[/quote]
I believe The Mage was using reductio ad absurdum in order to show the uselessness of Lifticus’ argument, not to give it legitimacy.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
LightsOutLuthor wrote:
And as I said above…it’s great to sit around and be philosophical, but how ‘abstract’ is that weight you’re putting up? Your thought does no good in the ‘reality’ we’re all living in, whether or not you like the norms we’ve set up and what we’ve collectively over time given value to, Neo.
I believe The Mage was using reductio ad absurdum in order to show the uselessness of Lifticus’ argument, not to give it legitimacy.[/quote]
I believe you are a random arrangeement of pixels on my computer screen portraying an illusion of logic.
Oh wait, I know you exist.
[quote]LightsOutLuthor wrote:
And as I said above…it’s great to sit around and be philosophical, but how ‘abstract’ is that weight you’re putting up? Your thought does no good in the ‘reality’ we’re all living in, whether or not you like the norms we’ve set up and what we’ve collectively over time given value to, Neo.
(I’m a physicist by degree, BTW…so I ‘get’ what you’re saying, but wrong time, wrong discussion man)
[/quote]
Actually this has a psychological link also, and is connected to a persons ability to achieve, and yes put up weight.
Anyway you are actually verbalizing my intent, as this started in response to another person who only seemed to “get it” on a low, political level. Yes this does nothing to further this discussion, and that was my whole (outer level) point surrounding the “philosophical” discussion.
Anyway, being a physicist, do you know of a good Fibonacci based mutual fund?
Anyway these discussions rarely stay on topic. They often branch off into 3 to 5 different interwoven subjects that may or may not have relevance to the original topic.