Shooting the Koran - Good or Bad?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Said idiot was in Iraq because the American government put him there. His bullets were paid by US tax money.

If you can’t see the difference, there’s no helping you.

He hates us because we pay taxes.

Grow up, you’re starting to sound like Bin Laden.[/quote]

And what does that tell you?

That Bin Laden has a point?

Noooo, who could possibly make you responsible for the actions of your elected representatives that finance wars with your money using soldiers that volunteered?

So you are the land of the free when it suits you but not when that means taking responsibility for your actions?

The home of the brave, unless that means standing up to your government?

Get real.

You bomb them, they try to kill you.

End of story.

43

[quote]Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:

The leading Sunni in the Iraqi government had this to say: “the feelings of bitterness and anger cannot be eased unless there is a deterrent punishment”.

The Iraqi Association of Muslim Scholars issued the following statement: “This heinous crime shows the hatred that the leaders and the members of the occupying force have against the Quran and the [Muslim] people”. The blame is overwhelmingly laid on the American government for this action from every single side of the Iraqi population.

Pretty heavy response for the actions of one idiot.

Of course it would be “unfair” for non-Muslims to react to Muslim behavior in the same way, right?

Said idiot was in Iraq because the American government put him there. His bullets were paid by US tax money.

If you can’t see the difference, there’s no helping you.

Poppycock. Are you (and they) really juvenile enough to believe that ANY government has complete & total control over it soldiers or citizens?

That response on their part is absurd. [/quote]

No. Nobody said anything about “citizens”. It is the soldiers that are the issue here. I don’t expect the US government to have “complete & total control” over every soldier, but I do know that the latter wouldn’t be shooting and raping Iraqis if the government didn’t deploy them their guns in hand.

However you look at it, the responsibility finger is pointing towards Washington. I understand that you are over the invasion and the lies that led to it, but realize that the people who lost family and friends because of it may not.

It is your response that is absurd. And I mean it in every sense of the term. Causality doesn’t vanish just because you choose to ignore it. This is not a case of rogue American public servants behaving like jerks overseas. These people are part of an invading force.

Sheesh, if you can’t even follow the series of events that lead up to such stories and acknowledge Washington’s responsibility, there’s not much use debating anything with you.

45

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Hey. Let’s review slowly: The point being discussed is the reaction to the shooting of the Koran. Understand? The only one talking about “shooting and raping Iraqis” is you. I said their response to THIS INCIDENT was overblown. “Are we clear?” [/quote]

Ok. That’s better.

See, if you comment two posts ago stopped at “Pretty heavy response for the actions of one idiot”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But you had to amalgamate the issue with talk of “unfair” Muslims (or was it non-Muslims?

Either way, what this soldier did doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Any reaction to it must be viewed in the proper context, which - like it or not - includes “shooting and raping Iraqis”, Abu-Ghraib, white phosphorous and other horrors. You can’t just take the shooting of the Quran separately when issuing a “response”. And if you ask me, better an “overblown” response than a “blown” limb.

But that’s just me.

For Heaven’s sake, what’s with you and “Islam”/“Muslims”? This is about Iraqis!!!

A country bombs and invades another. A soldier from the invading force takes a highly respected item, writes profanities on it then uses it for target practice and you call it “whining”? What the hell’s the matter with you?

[quote]Sheesh, if you can’t even follow the series of events that lead up to such stories and acknowledge Washington’s responsibility, there’s not much use debating anything with you.

If you can’t stop ending your posts with insults, you’re going to be thought of as an obnoxious jerk. Oops…too late. [/quote]

Insults?

I don’t plan to.

As long as US troops don’t get out of there and a formal apology is released by the White House, I’ll continue to bitch about the war on Iraq.

I take it you don’t own any Halliburton stock.

47

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Just curious: In your mind do things like 9/11 temper your criticism of the US, since it is “context.” Do such crimes help to “excuse” the US in your mind? [/quote]

It definitely is context. Bush and his crew would have had a harder time selling all their crap if it hadn’t been for 9/11. Does it excuse the war of aggression on Iraq? Not even remotely. However, it totally justified the toppling of the Talibans.

9/11 was a horrible crime, but few Americans put it in perspective. It was the first major attack on US soil by foreign nationals. It was more about novelty and the demystification of an untouchable America that got people riled up. 3000 dead people is a horror but it pales in comparison of what some countries had to endure at the hands of the US military. Often times, we hear about the “home of the brave”, and I can’t help but wonder what America’s reaction would be if a deadlier attack occured (think fighter jets dropping bombs). I mean, if the “Patriot” was passed in 2001 because of a bunch of cutter-waving crimimals, what would the state turn into in case something bigger happens. But hey, it’s pure conjecture.

48

[quote]Phate89 wrote:
If you want to burn their holy books and offend them, don’t be suprised when they behead and kill your soldiers.[/quote]

The Muslim world has been at war with its neighbors for centuries. To blame it on book burning is foolish.

49

[quote]orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Said idiot was in Iraq because the American government put him there. His bullets were paid by US tax money.

If you can’t see the difference, there’s no helping you.

He hates us because we pay taxes.

Grow up, you’re starting to sound like Bin Laden.

And what does that tell you?

That Bin Laden has a point?

Noooo, who could possibly make you responsible for the actions of your elected representatives that finance wars with your money using soldiers that volunteered?

So you are the land of the free when it suits you but not when that means taking responsibility for your actions?

The home of the brave, unless that means standing up to your government?

Get real.

You bomb them, they try to kill you.

End of story.

[/quote]

They have tried to kill us for centuries. The first country to go to war with the US after our independence was an Islamic nation. Their reason was we refused to pay them tribute.

50

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Phate89 wrote:
If you want to burn their holy books and offend them, don’t be suprised when they behead and kill your soldiers.

The Muslim world has been at war with its neighbors for centuries. To blame it on book burning is foolish.[/quote]

If we simply look at outcomes, its easy to see the superiority of the West compared to Islamic civilisation: both economically and politically, the West has far outpaced the hidebound civilisations.

The Muslims watch people in the West soar ahead of them, actually attain some measure of happiness on earth, and they resent it.

52

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
These people would kill for a book?

Isn’t belief in God more than just these things? [/quote]

Wacking people is the sixth pillar…

53

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Said idiot was in Iraq because the American government put him there. His bullets were paid by US tax money.

If you can’t see the difference, there’s no helping you.

He hates us because we pay taxes.

Grow up, you’re starting to sound like Bin Laden.[/quote]

That is exactly the kind of shit Bin Laden said when he was explaining his justification for 9/11.

54

Here is the muslim position on the incident:

http://revolution.muslimpad.com/2008/05/18/america-we-do-not-accept-your-stinking-apology-of-shooting-our-noble-quraan/#comment-2964

Sounds like someone we know.

55

Heh, what do you know? The monkey apologized personally.

‘Bush apology’ for Koran shooting

Who’s the idiot who used the term “overblown”?

Edit’d: Malformed URL

56

The soldier willfully committed an act detrimental to the mission. The soldier should face disciplinary action.

So what’s controversial here?

57

[quote]etaco wrote:
The soldier willfully committed an act detrimental to the mission. The soldier should face disciplinary action.

So what’s controversial here?[/quote]

Nothing. You have it exactly right.

58

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Said idiot was in Iraq because the American government put him there. His bullets were paid by US tax money.

If you can’t see the difference, there’s no helping you.

He hates us because we pay taxes.

Grow up, you’re starting to sound like Bin Laden.

And what does that tell you?

That Bin Laden has a point?

Noooo, who could possibly make you responsible for the actions of your elected representatives that finance wars with your money using soldiers that volunteered?

So you are the land of the free when it suits you but not when that means taking responsibility for your actions?

The home of the brave, unless that means standing up to your government?

Get real.

You bomb them, they try to kill you.

End of story.

They have tried to kill us for centuries. The first country to go to war with the US after our independence was an Islamic nation. Their reason was we refused to pay them tribute.[/quote]

Thank you for bringing that up. For centuries, the Barbary powers were kidnapping and enslaving Europeans. It is estimated that 10 million Europeans were captured at sea or by various amphibious raids by Muslim pirates from North Africa with the blessing of the Ottoman sultan, who was at that time the Caliph.

At the start of our nation, these same pirates preyed on our merchantmen in the Mediterranean, justifying their actions with Islamic doctrine. It wasn’t until we sailed over there and stomped them that they stopped.

59

guffaw

“Hey guys, yuck yuck, check out what I did to this here Ko-Ran! Harr-dee-harr-harr”

This is how I imagine this scene being played out. I don’t particularly respect Islam, any more than I do any other religion. I do, however, have a certain level of decorum that I maintain and that I expect those around me to. This is clearly childish inappropriate behavior.

Just because other people have committed much worse attrocities does not excuse inappropriate behavior in response, regardless of the magnitude. When I was doing NROTC, I was instructed that part of leadership is maintaining professionalism and decorum and not allowing things like this to happen, regardless of your personal feelings.

60

[quote]conorh wrote:
guffaw

“Hey guys, yuck yuck, check out what I did to this here Ko-Ran! Harr-dee-harr-harr”

This is how I imagine this scene being played out. I don’t particularly respect Islam, any more than I do any other religion. I do, however, have a certain level of decorum that I maintain and that I expect those around me to. This is clearly childish inappropriate behavior.

Just because other people have committed much worse attrocities does not excuse inappropriate behavior in response, regardless of the magnitude. When I was doing NROTC, I was instructed that part of leadership is maintaining professionalism and decorum and not allowing things like this to happen, regardless of your personal feelings.[/quote]

In my experience, NROTC was where self-obsessed O-3 SWOs and NFOs got their chance to go to B-School before getting out and O-6s who won’t make flag rank got to play tennis all day before retiring. I have to say, I learned nothing of practical value about leadership from my officer instructors. Actually, I take that back. I learned how NOT to lead from them.

In reality, the groveling done by the chain of command for this particular incident is yet another breakdown in leadership. A book was shot up, yet we must have the usual announcements from Bush on down about how we are not at war with Islam (even though it is at war with us), and how detrimental to “winning hearts and minds” such actions are by our armed forces. Such groveling is interpreted as weakness by the Arabs and is not respected or appreciated.