Shooting In South Carolina

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…Thing is, the South’s is darker and, very importantly, being pushed to the fore by people who, today, want to fly a racist flag on state property.

Edited.[/quote]

It certainly might appear that way to a Yankee. And even some racist southerners. But to many more it doesn’t.[/quote]

This isn’t about appearances. That flag was born in, and for the specific purpose of, the secession of the South, for the explicit reason of defense of the institution of slavery. It stood over armies fighting to maintain the rights of people who owned blacks (the documents make clear that it’s ‘African slavery’ they so desire to nurture). No weird and vague acrobatics remove it from what it is, which is exactly that.

[quote]
BTW, I’ve seen many a confederate flag on vehicles in the…North, with Yankee license plates, in my travels across the US these past 54 years.[/quote]

Yes indeed. I’ve seen the same thing – I lived in upstate NY for a year, next to a guy who had the stars and bars painted on his garage. I think the same of him and them. (However, note that it isn’t in Albany that the government feels like it’s a good idea to fly, before the State House, a flag created for the purpose of protecting slavery.)

[quote]
No need to tinker via politically correct machinery to “fix” all perceived wrongs.[/quote]

This isn’t about political correctness, and I’m a vicious opponent of Left PC authoritarianism. I’m not arguing that the thing should be taken off people’s porches. I’m talking about what is appropriate to fly on public land. These colors are unambiguously not, for reasons clear and already given.

Edited.

[quote]Aggv wrote:
I think you need to go back to your “prominent” online university[/quote]

That would be funny if I’d said that the university I attended was prominent, which I didn’t. But now that you mention it, it is very prominent, and it’s not online. This matters only because of your suggestion that my understanding of this was high-school level.

[quote]
and read up without the rose colored history glasses on, and get better perspective.

I’m not suggesting morality was not part of the equation[/quote]

What I objected to was – and this is a direct quote – “the war was about economics, not morality.” It was wrong, I explained why. The end.

[quote]
but it was nowhere near the level with which you are implying. [/quote]

I am not implying anything. I said a bunch of things, all of them correct and historical. You can take issue with a fact/argument if you want. To say “get a better perspective” while offering not even a shred of an argument – this is an admission of your inability to participate in this.

Edited.

My statement that the war was about economics, not morality was not intended to dismiss the morality, but to state that it was a small factor when considering everything else about the war.

neither of us are wrong.

[quote]Aggv wrote:
My statement that the war was about economics, not morality was not intended to dismiss the morality, but to state that it was a small factor when considering everything else the about the war.

neither of us are wrong.[/quote]

Clarified so – and it did need the clarification, because, as it stood originally, it was a plainly incorrect permutation of a fringe revisionism gaining currency on the far Right – I don’t have such strong issue with it.

However, it would be a mistake to pretend that moral objections to slavery, centered in the North, did not play a major part in the events leading up to and causing the civil war. This is not to say that the federal government took up some high-road cause, or that the North was a monolithic collection of forward-thinking heroes. But the moral objections of influential and increasingly-large groups of northerners made their way into state policies (and echoed their way south, alarming slave-holding states by mere virtue of their existence on paper). These state policies – like, to take one of many examples, Vermont’s FSA “nullification,” which I mentioned – were an explicit and major cause of secession, contributing as they did to the southern suspicion that the institution of slavery was going to face increasingly ardent criticism/obstructionism within the United States.

Edited.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

This isn’t about political correctness

[/quote]

I think it is despite your plea to the contrary.[/quote]

Only if you define “PC” as “against flying a flag born in and for explicit racism (of the most institutional kind, no less) over state land.” In which case you have diluted the definition of PC to meaninglessness, and you won’t be able to denounce it when it actually comes around.

[quote]

Maybe, but you’re apparently not a vicious opponent of running 'round hither and yon with a Crescent wrench in your hand trying to fix things – and fix them in a state a long ways off from the one you reside in.[/quote]

I am not a moral relativist. What is clearly stupid in New York is clearly stupid in South Carolina. That these people live in a different town has no bearing on the facts I’ve offered. The rules of evidence and logic don’t change with geographical coordinates.

Substitute “idiots” for “rebel bastards” and I guess you’re right. But this doesn’t change the fact that I am correct. I don’t want to stop some sad clown from wrapping himself in a Confederate bedspread every night. I simply understand that there are certain colors that should not fly on public land, and these are unambiguously among them.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

I am not a moral relativist. What is clearly stupid in New York is clearly stupid in South Carolina. That these people live in a different town has no bearing on the facts I’ve offered. The rules of evidence and logic don’t change with geographical coordinates.

[/quote]

The main point was not the handyman’s shop location; it’s his OCD obsession with “runnin’ ‘round fixin’ things.” It’s not necessary.[/quote]

This is a meaningless objection. Either it is or it is not appropriate for those colors to fly on public property. It is not, for reasons given and never even slightly refuted.

When it comes to PC nonsense – gendered pronouns, safe spaces, trigger warnings – I’m with you. This is not even close to similar.

Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.

There’s quite a bit of fail in here about the origins and motives regarding the Civil War.

The war was fought for many reasons, the primary one being the preservation of the United States. President Lincoln stated as much on several occasions. There were certainly economic reasons as well, but from a morality standpoint, that doesn’t become much of an issue until about 1863. Do not forget: the North technically started the war itself, but the action that made war inevitable was the secession of the South.

Secession occurred because the Southern states did not feel the federal gov’t had the power to apply federal legislation to the territories, despite the fact that the federal gov’t had been doing that exact thing since before ratification (see: Justice McLean and Justice Curtis’ dissents in Scott v. Sandford). This was the view of those Southerners who supported Chief Justice Taney’s decision in Scott v. Sandford. There were others, of the Stephen Douglas ilk, who felt that state sovereignty as expressed through the doctrine of popular sovereignty was being undermined by federal legislation being applied to the territories. Either way, Southerners felt that the federal gov’t was unconstitutionally encroaching upon state sovereignty, hence the “states’ rights” argument.

This ignores the other half of the Southern argument, namely that states cannot even vote on their own to bar or accept slavery. These are the ones who were turned off by Douglas’ pitiful attempt at bridging the gap between these two factions in the South and elsewhere (the Freeport Doctrine).

Regardless, the entire argument from either Southern faction still boils down to the idea that blacks were 1) not fit to ever become citizens of the Unites States, 2) that slavery was the natural condition of blacks OR blacks were of such an inferior status that any association with whites, especially as slaves, would be of benefit to them.

The entire argument from the South really heavily leans on the idea that certain races can be construed to be property. The states’ rights argument is a more general presentation of a property rights argument. And what specific property are we talking about here? People, specifically those of African ancestry.

So to argue that the South seceded due to economic reasons largely ignores that upon which their economy was based. HOWEVER, even the economic argument is vapid and self-serving at best. The fact is that while the cotton industry obviously drove the Southern economy, slavery itself was not very economically efficient at all.

For the North, the war was less about slavery and more about preserving the United States. To the North, Southern secession was a direct threat to the sovereignty of the United States, in the form of insurrection and rebellion. In Article I.9.2 of the Constitution, it clearly states that Congress has the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus in case of rebellion. In Article IV.4, it clearly states that the President can exercise Congress’ power to protect any and all states from insurrection or rebellion IF Congress is unable to convene. It’s hard for them to convene when 7 states have seceded and confiscated property belonging to the United States in the process. Finally, Article II.1.8, the Presidential oath is enumerated, in which the President is sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution itself is a compact between states, as the South rightfully argued when protesting certain Northern states’ refusal to adhere to the Fugitive Slave Law. However, when the South seceded, they also violated this compact, and the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, which all 7 states originally signed on for, clearly states that the Constitution, NOT the states themselves, are the ultimate sovereign. James Madison argues this point quite eloquently in Federalist #44.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.[/quote]

Some folks, usually not southerners, share your views. Some, including a lot of southerners, like me, who are NOT racist bastards, don’t.[/quote]

I always pictured you born and raised in Montana.

Most importantly – I know you aren’t racist. I’m not arguing that the people who want to fly the flag are racist (well, some and/or many – including Dylann Storm Roof – are, but nothing like all, and certainly not you). I’m arguing about whether it is actually appropriate, given the flag’s origin and history. Many people from the South feel certain things about the CSA battle colors. I am not talking about feelings – they are ingrained early and have no necessary connection with the rational world. I am talking about what is and what isn’t. The facts I’ve offered about the colors are not capable of serving as objects of contention. They are beyond dispute. And they lead clearly to the conclusion that the flag should not fly on public property.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.[/quote]

Some folks, usually not southerners, share your views. Some, including a lot of southerners, like me, who are NOT racist bastards, don’t.[/quote]

You may not be a racist bastard, but it’s hard to argue otherwise when you support flying a flag that is a symbol of just that thing. The South seceded due to the idea that their property rights as states and as individuals were in jeopardy.

They only have property rights over which to secede if they first acknowledge that people can be construed as property.

As many a Southerner testified prior to, during, and after the Civil War, blacks were considered to be so inferior to whites that slavery was considered a good thing for blacks, since it put them in closer proximity with “enlightened” whites.

Read every section referring to “slaves” in the Constitution. Madison was very careful not to construct those clauses in such a manner as to define any human being as property. It’s quite the extra-constitutional leap to assume that there is ANY state right whatsoever to determine whether a person can become someone’s else literal property.

So you can embrace the flag as a symbol of Southern pride, but pride in what? Pride in a failed rebellion fought in part to preserve the “right” to own someone else because of their ancestry? Pride in getting your teeth kicked in during the “war of Northern aggression”? Pride in a bastardized interpretation of the Constitution and its origins? Pride in the disparate amount of federal welfare dollars that are spent in the South? Pride in the fact that the very thing from which the South seceded, the federal gov’t, is largely responsible for keeping many southern states viable? (Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Louisiana, to name a few, are some of the largest recipients of federal money in the country).

What exactly does the flag represent to Southerners who are NOT racist?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.[/quote]

Some folks, usually not southerners, share your views. Some, including a lot of southerners, like me, who are NOT racist bastards, don’t.[/quote]

I always pictured you born and raised in Montana.

Most importantly – I know you aren’t racist. I’m not arguing that the people who want to fly the flag are racist (well, some and/or many – including Dylann Storm Roof – are, but nothing like all, and certainly not you). I’m arguing about whether it is actually appropriate, given the flag’s origin and history. Many people from the South feel certain things about the CSA battle colors. I am not talking about feelings – they are ingrained early and have no necessary connection with the rational world. I am talking about what is and what isn’t. The facts I’ve offered about the colors are not capable of serving as objects of contention. They are beyond dispute. And they lead clearly to the conclusion that the flag should not fly on public property.[/quote]

Pardon me, but…uh, how did you get from “is” to “should”?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.[/quote]

Some folks, usually not southerners, share your views. Some, including a lot of southerners, like me, who are NOT racist bastards, don’t.[/quote]

I always pictured you born and raised in Montana.

Most importantly – I know you aren’t racist. I’m not arguing that the people who want to fly the flag are racist (well, some and/or many – including Dylann Storm Roof – are, but nothing like all, and certainly not you). I’m arguing about whether it is actually appropriate, given the flag’s origin and history. Many people from the South feel certain things about the CSA battle colors. I am not talking about feelings – they are ingrained early and have no necessary connection with the rational world. I am talking about what is and what isn’t. The facts I’ve offered about the colors are not capable of serving as objects of contention. They are beyond dispute. And they lead clearly to the conclusion that the flag should not fly on public property.[/quote]

Pardon me, but…uh, how did you get from “is” to “should”?[/quote]

By not being a nihilist?

“Joe is a pedophile, so you shouldn’t let him babysit your kids.”

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Or:

What is “not necessary” is to fly on public property a flag born in and of the secession of states in order that they could safeguard the future of the property status of black slaves. Taking it down is indeed very necessary.[/quote]

Some folks, usually not southerners, share your views. Some, including a lot of southerners, like me, who are NOT racist bastards, don’t.[/quote]

I always pictured you born and raised in Montana.

Most importantly – I know you aren’t racist. I’m not arguing that the people who want to fly the flag are racist (well, some and/or many – including Dylann Storm Roof – are, but nothing like all, and certainly not you). I’m arguing about whether it is actually appropriate, given the flag’s origin and history. Many people from the South feel certain things about the CSA battle colors. I am not talking about feelings – they are ingrained early and have no necessary connection with the rational world. I am talking about what is and what isn’t. The facts I’ve offered about the colors are not capable of serving as objects of contention. They are beyond dispute. And they lead clearly to the conclusion that the flag should not fly on public property.[/quote]

You have argued this well.[/quote]

Thank you, sir – much appreciated.