Sherman's March

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
JeffR wrote:
What you cannot seem to do is realize that George Bush has not only admitted personal errors, he has taken steps to try to rectify them.

He has?

From what I have seen, George W. Bush has demonstrated an astounding lack of personal responsibility for just about everything.

I have seen, from Neo-cons and this administration, blaming other people, passing responsibility to other people, figuring out ways to make it not their fault, back-peddling, and ass-covering of the highest order! When things go wrong, they blame the democrats, or liberals, or iraqis, or moderates, or extremists, or wardrobe malfunctions, or anything but themselves.

And in the rare, rare occasion they even come CLOSE to admitting a failure, they are never upfront about it. They hide behind ambiguous wording, vague claims, and thinly veiled deniability, again trying to pass the brunt of the blame to someone else.

The only time W. ever ‘took responsibility’ for anything was with hurricane katrina. A NATURAL Disaster! not only is that an entirely meaningless thing to ‘take responsibility’ for, but his actions to help relief were pathetic at best. New Orleans is still hurt deeply from that, many lives will never recover, many areas will never be cleaned up, and countless relief money will never make a difference.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think that George W. Bush has ANY sense of personal responsibility. He was born rich, brought up rich, never had to work for anything he has, and you think he has a sense of personal responsibility? get real.

[/quote]

Hey, mal:

I disagree with just about everything you just typed.

Question: If I show you unequivocal examples of taking personal responsibility for errors, will you admit your own?

I’ve come to a turning point. I’m not going to spend the time and effort to refute nonsense, unless, I AT LEAST have the satisfaction of someone admitting they were wrong.

Oh, if I prove your assertions false, and you then decide to not respond, we will have a perfect example of lack of character.

JeffR

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Thanks. I know you are trying. However, what you don’t realize, is that the leader of the Senate stood up yesterday and waved surrender.

After 4 years of Iraqi quagmire? Don’t you think it’s time someone woke up and smelled the coffee?

Robert Gates himself said a few months back that he didn’t think you were winning in Iraq. I’m sure he’s been properly retrained since, like all the other little Bush lapdogs, but quit pretending that everything is honky-dory in Iraq and that the evil Dems are dragging you down.

Quite a few republicans have also spoken out against staying any longer in Iraq.

Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that we Republicans don’t have a right to be angry? Are you really going to sit here and tell me that the enemy isn’t fully aware and supportive of this effort to undermine the effort?

How about the right of the people to be angry about the war itself? Started on false pretenses and spinned every which way since to flatly deny the reality that anyone who watches the news can see for himself?

The democrats are directly responsible for both the initial vote and NOW the ongoing effort.

Right. The Dems got you stuck in Iraq. Keep forgetting.

They can’t cower behind W. any longer. When the President of the Senate gives aid to the enemy. When the leader of the House of Representatives LIES and then BREAKS THE LAW by meeting and negotiating with the syrian, asssad, you are DAMN RIGHT the democrats are part of the problem.

That’s bullshit partisan hackery.

Here’s Tom Lantos comments on it: “The administration’s criticism [of Pelosi] is particularly pathetic, because two days before we went to Damascus, three Republican colleagues were there, meeting with Assad. We had a distinguished Republican in our delegation. And two days after our delegation, another Republican member of Congress visited with Assad. So if this is not hypocrisy, I don’t know what is.”

So, whats your problem? Can only republicans meet with Assad?

Now, you can come on here and armchair quarterback. You can rail against W’s miscalculations.

What you cannot seem to do is realize that George Bush has not only admitted personal errors, he has taken steps to try to rectify them.

You mean he’s found people around to blame for his mistakes. That’s how he “takes responsibility.”

Further, you cannot bring yourself to compliment W on his ability TO DO EXACTLY AS YOU JUST SUGGESTED.

Woah Nelly… backup a minute here. What is he doing that I suggested?

Without that ability. Without the ability to be even handed, I’d be very careful who you call “clown.”

JeffR

Rest assured, I am very careful. I’ve yet to call someone a clown by mistake.

You’re still my Jeffro.
[/quote]

pookie,

Sorry, pal. I need a break from proving you wrong.

I just wanted you to know that I did read what you wrote. Naturally, I disagree with almost all of it.

In time, we’ll get to each of your errors.

JeffRo The Clown

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
The Congressional authorization contained over 22 reasons to intervene in Iraq - signed off by Republicans and Democrats.[/quote]

But oh how the left would love for everyone to forget about this. They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid. Now, I’ll agree that the handling and management of Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam has been poor. No argument from me there. It just pisses me off when I see the majority of the democratic party, and the majority of leftists for that matter, try to rewrite Iraq as “Bush lied”.

C’mon

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

But oh how the left would love for everyone to forget about this. They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid. Now, I’ll agree that the handling and management of Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam has been poor. No argument from me there. It just pisses me off when I see the majority of the democratic party, and the majority of leftists for that matter, try to rewrite Iraq as “Bush lied”. [/quote]

Exactly. Disagree with the war. Say it was a bad decision - too costly, too risky, too ineffective at securing larger goals, whatever - that is all fine and fair.

Just please stop trying to peddle that all this occurred with nefarious “bad faith”.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The Congressional authorization contained over 22 reasons to intervene in Iraq - signed off by Republicans and Democrats.

But oh how the left would love for everyone to forget about this. They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid. Now, I’ll agree that the handling and management of Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam has been poor. No argument from me there. It just pisses me off when I see the majority of the democratic party, and the majority of leftists for that matter, try to rewrite Iraq as “Bush lied”.

C’mon

[/quote]

Hey, BigFlamer, stop watching “faux” news long enough to realize that Bush is both ignorant and a genius.

He is smart enough to have defeated our best plans repeatedly. He’s smart enough to have “tricked” us into voting for the Iraq War.

However, on every other issue, he’s a buffoon.

Signed,

bradley and his pals

[quote]JeffR wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The Congressional authorization contained over 22 reasons to intervene in Iraq - signed off by Republicans and Democrats.

But oh how the left would love for everyone to forget about this. They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid. Now, I’ll agree that the handling and management of Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam has been poor. No argument from me there. It just pisses me off when I see the majority of the democratic party, and the majority of leftists for that matter, try to rewrite Iraq as “Bush lied”.

C’mon

Hey, BigFlamer, stop watching “faux” news long enough to realize that Bush is both ignorant and a genius.

He is smart enough to have defeated our best plans repeatedly. He’s smart enough to have “tricked” us into voting for the Iraq War.

However, on every other issue, he’s a buffoon.

Signed,

bradley and his pals
[/quote]

Hahaha! That was exactly my point sir :-]

The left has the distinguished honor of being “duped” by the “dumbest president in history”. Haha, good stuff.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

But oh how the left would love for everyone to forget about this. They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid. Now, I’ll agree that the handling and management of Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam has been poor. No argument from me there. It just pisses me off when I see the majority of the democratic party, and the majority of leftists for that matter, try to rewrite Iraq as “Bush lied”.

Exactly. Disagree with the war. Say it was a bad decision - too costly, too risky, too ineffective at securing larger goals, whatever - that is all fine and fair.

Just please stop trying to peddle that all this occurred with nefarious “bad faith”.[/quote]

Thunder, I thought this was a good article on the subject.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/bush_lied_is_the_big_lie.html

Bush Lied is the Big Lie
By Debra Saunders

Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson wants to impeach President Bush. In arguing that point, he asked Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly on Tuesday, “Have you seen the National Intelligence Estimate that was provided in October of 2002, in which the intelligence agency under the State Department said that Iraq was not building up a nuclear capability, that this whole story about the aluminum tubes (reportedly sought by Saddam Hussein in Niger) was completely off base?”

I decided to re-read the NIE excerpts that the administration released. What does the report say? “Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of U.N. restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade.” The NIE also reported that Iraq had “expanded its chemical and biological infrastructure under the cover of civilian production,” that Baghdad had renewed production of mustard and sarin gases, and that Iraqi missiles could threaten the “U.S. homeland.”

Yes, the NIE key judgments reported that some officials in the State Department did not believe Saddam Hussein was pursuing a “comprehensive approach to acquire nuclear weapons.” But the report also noted that, “Most agencies assess that Baghdad started reconstituting its nuclear program about the time that (U.N. weapons) inspectors departed – December 1998.”

So let us review the Bush-lied argument that Anderson and other war critics espouse. They say Bush lied about WMD, when, in fact, America’s best intelligence presented no doubt about Iraq having chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction. And according to the NIE, most intelligence agencies also believed Iraq had been working on nukes for four years.

Here’s another point that the Bush-lied misinformation campaign has forgotten. While war critics point to Bush’s inclusion of this sentence – “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” – in his 2003 State of the Union Address as proof that Bush misled the country into war, Bush uttered those words three months after Congress voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq.

Bush Lied is the Big Lie. It takes the controversy over one aspect of U.S. intelligence on Iraq’s WMD – the nuclear program question – to argue that the whole WMD argument was bogus. That is, the president’s accusers are guilty of the very sort of dishonest selectivity that they accuse Bush of using.

Now the Bush-lied lie is boomeranging on those Democratic presidential hopefuls – Sens. Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Christopher Dodd and former Sen. John Edwards – who voted in favor of the Iraq war resolution.
By going along with the Bush-lied spin, by refusing to acknowledge that the intelligence community presented strong reasons to vote for war, these Democrats have boxed themselves into a corner.

They now have only one rationale for their vote that they can use – they were duped by the nincompoop Bush – or one rationale that they cannot use – they sent U.S. troops to Iraq against their better judgment but out of naked ambition.

And the dishonesty now has placed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in the uncomfortable position of pushing for passage of a bill to continue funding a war into next year that the grassroots believe was based on a lie.

So how does Pelosi plan on getting the House to pass the Iraq spending bill? As The Washington Post reported, the Democratic leadership has larded the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans’ Health and Iraq Accountability Act with pork. After all the (deserved) rhetoric decrying Republican big spending, the Democratic leadership inserted $25 million for spinach growers, $75 million for peanut storage, and $120 million for shrimp and Atlantic menhaden fishermen into the supplemental spending bill.

The idea is to sweeten the pot so that war opponents will agree to fund a war they oppose, while war supporters will vote for the bill, despite provisions that seem to be designed solely to undermine the Bush surge.

Pelosi frequently says that President Bush must heed the message that American voters sent in November 2006. Who knew that message was to fund the war while undermining the war effort and to spend more tax dollars on pork?

Copyright 2007 Creators Syndicate

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Sorry, pal. I need a break from proving you wrong.[/quote]

I’m sure you do. Spin is hard work.

That’s expected. The Laws of Jeffroland have little in common with The Real World™.

[quote]In time, we’ll get to each of your errors.

JeffRo The Clown
[/quote]

Just tell me what Bush has done that I’d suggested? I’m really curious about that one.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Hey, mal:

I disagree with just about everything you just typed.

Question: If I show you unequivocal examples of taking personal responsibility for errors, will you admit your own?

I’ve come to a turning point. I’m not going to spend the time and effort to refute nonsense, unless, I AT LEAST have the satisfaction of someone admitting they were wrong.

Oh, if I prove your assertions false, and you then decide to not respond, we will have a perfect example of lack of character.

JeffR

[/quote]

You disagree with what I typed, but that does not make any of it inaccurate. I want you to show me examples of George W. Bush taking responsibility for errors, and actually DOING something to try and make up for them.

Show me Bush admitting failure and not trying to pass the blame off to anyone else but he and his cabinet. Show me his cabinet not trying to cover his ass. You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

I would not have called you on your claim if I didn’t want to see that.

Oh, and my character has nothing to do with this debate, it is as irrelevant as your character is. It does not have any effect on whether or not Bush can accept blame.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid.[/quote]

Not to piss on anyone’s parade, but those 22 reasons Briefing Room - The White House
break down like this:

  1. WMDs possession/research/thwarting inspections etc.
  2. Upholding U.N. Resolutions vis-a-vis WMDs.
  3. Link to Al-Qaeda/Terrorism ties.
  4. Saddam is brutal to his own people.
  5. Saddam tried to kill papa Bush.
  6. Democratize Iraq
  7. U.S. Interests, international peace.

I get 21… must’ve missed one, but it doesn’t really change my point: Over half the reasons given have to do with WMDs. Having them, researching them, hiding them, thwarting inspections, etc.

Quite a few of the remaining reasons have to do with a supposed link to Al-Qaeda and sponsoring of terrorism. Does anyone other than Dick Cheney still believe that?

Take everything pertaining to WMDs out of that document and you’re not left with “solid reasons…” That’s why people keep mentioning WMDs as the reason for invading Iraq.

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Sorry, pal. I need a break from proving you wrong.

I’m sure you do. Spin is hard work.

I just wanted you to know that I did read what you wrote. Naturally, I disagree with almost all of it.

That’s expected. The Laws of Jeffroland have little in common with The Real World™.

In time, we’ll get to each of your errors.

JeffRo The Clown

Just tell me what Bush has done that I’d suggested? I’m really curious about that one.

[/quote]

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Sorry, pal. I need a break from proving you wrong.

I’m sure you do. Spin is hard work.

I just wanted you to know that I did read what you wrote. Naturally, I disagree with almost all of it.

That’s expected. The Laws of Jeffroland have little in common with The Real World™.

In time, we’ll get to each of your errors.

JeffRo The Clown

Just tell me what Bush has done that I’d suggested? I’m really curious about that one.

[/quote]

Couldn’t let it go? Ok, pookie, here we go, AGAIN.

Note liberal sources.

www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/14/bush.iraq/index.html

daoureportgrit.blogspot.com/2006/05/in-stunning-admission-bush-regrets.html

Now read them in their entirety. Think through both the admission of error and what he is doing to correct mistakes.

Then drop this talking point from your vocabulary for the good of the human race.

Ok, one more thing, pookie. Let’s get this written in stone.

You make uninformed comments, “Rome, Bush doesn’t admit errors, Swat team not in Norris Hall, etc…” I correct you, then you admit error.

No dithering or trying to weasle.

If not, then direct your talking points elsewhere.

Deal?

Thanks,

Jeffro The Clown Who Only Watches Faux News and Lives in An Alternate Reality

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Hey, mal:

I disagree with just about everything you just typed.

Question: If I show you unequivocal examples of taking personal responsibility for errors, will you admit your own?

I’ve come to a turning point. I’m not going to spend the time and effort to refute nonsense, unless, I AT LEAST have the satisfaction of someone admitting they were wrong.

Oh, if I prove your assertions false, and you then decide to not respond, we will have a perfect example of lack of character.

JeffR

You disagree with what I typed, but that does not make any of it inaccurate. I want you to show me examples of George W. Bush taking responsibility for errors, and actually DOING something to try and make up for them.

Show me Bush admitting failure and not trying to pass the blame off to anyone else but he and his cabinet. Show me his cabinet not trying to cover his ass. You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

I would not have called you on your claim if I didn’t want to see that.

Oh, and my character has nothing to do with this debate, it is as irrelevant as your character is. It does not have any effect on whether or not Bush can accept blame.

[/quote]

mal,

Again, if I show you the evidence, will you admit error?

I’ll make it irrefutable.

Deal?

JeffR

[quote]pookie wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid.

Not to piss on anyone’s parade, but those 22 reasons Briefing Room | The White House
break down like this:

  1. WMDs possession/research/thwarting inspections etc.
  2. Upholding U.N. Resolutions vis-a-vis WMDs.
  3. Link to Al-Qaeda/Terrorism ties.
  4. Saddam is brutal to his own people.
  5. Saddam tried to kill papa Bush.
  6. Democratize Iraq
  7. U.S. Interests, international peace.

I get 21… must’ve missed one, but it doesn’t really change my point: Over half the reasons given have to do with WMDs. Having them, researching them, hiding them, thwarting inspections, etc.

Quite a few of the remaining reasons have to do with a supposed link to Al-Qaeda and sponsoring of terrorism. Does anyone other than Dick Cheney still believe that?

Take everything pertaining to WMDs out of that document and you’re not left with “solid reasons…” That’s why people keep mentioning WMDs as the reason for invading Iraq.
[/quote]

pookie,

Please let me off the hook on this one.

Tell me that this silliness wasn’t directed at me.

Please.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

[quote]pookie wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
They’ve made quite an effort out of rewriting the pretense to invasion around WMD’s as THE sole reason for invasion.

The reasons for invasion were solid.

Not to piss on anyone’s parade, but those 22 reasons Briefing Room - The White House
break down like this:

  1. WMDs possession/research/thwarting inspections etc.
  2. Upholding U.N. Resolutions vis-a-vis WMDs.
  3. Link to Al-Qaeda/Terrorism ties.
  4. Saddam is brutal to his own people.
  5. Saddam tried to kill papa Bush.
  6. Democratize Iraq
  7. U.S. Interests, international peace.

I get 21… must’ve missed one, but it doesn’t really change my point: Over half the reasons given have to do with WMDs. Having them, researching them, hiding them, thwarting inspections, etc.

Quite a few of the remaining reasons have to do with a supposed link to Al-Qaeda and sponsoring of terrorism. Does anyone other than Dick Cheney still believe that?

Take everything pertaining to WMDs out of that document and you’re not left with “solid reasons…” That’s why people keep mentioning WMDs as the reason for invading Iraq.
[/quote]

Quick comment: the resolution which Britain and US base their legal grounds for war on, doesen’t only mention WMD, but also ballistic missiles with a certain range, the scud-missiles come within this range… :wink:

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Couldn’t let it go? Ok, pookie, here we go, AGAIN.

Note liberal sources.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16558652/

www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/14/bush.iraq/index.html

daoureportgrit.blogspot.com/2006/05/in-stunning-admission-bush-regrets.html

Now read them in their entirety. Think through both the admission of error and what he is doing to correct mistakes.

Then drop this talking point from your vocabulary for the good of the human race.[/quote]

That’s it? When I mentioned that politicians were always trying to blame someone/something else rather than take responsibility, I was talking generally. Not once did I even mention Bush at that time.

I stand by what I said.

[quote]Ok, one more thing, pookie. Let’s get this written in stone.

You make uninformed comments, “Rome, Bush doesn’t admit errors, Swat team not in Norris Hall, etc…” I correct you, then you admit error.[/quote]

You have a nice way of putting it. Our discussion about Rome and it’s legion brought a few nuances, but there’s no way a convincing parallel could be drawn to modern US troops. Maybe for you, I don’t know. You seem to be in these discussions to “score points”; I’m not sure why. Do you get to choose a gift in a catalog when you’ve accumulated enough?

You mean weasel. I guess only you get to do that, right?

[quote]If not, then direct your talking points elsewhere.

Deal?

Thanks,

Jeffro The Clown Who Only Watches Faux News and Lives in An Alternate Reality[/quote] And Is a SWAT Expert Because He Reads Every Issue of Soldier Of Fortune.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Please let me off the hook on this one.

Tell me that this silliness wasn’t directed at me.

Please.[/quote]

Come now, you know you waaaant it.

Why would you reply to something evidently not addressed to you in the first place.

You want to score more “you-re-wrong-and-i-m-right” points.

I know you do. You’re begging for your fix.

Go ahead, let me have it.

[quote]pookie wrote:

That’s it? When I mentioned that politicians were always trying to blame someone/something else rather than take responsibility, I was talking generally. Not once did I even mention Bush at that time.

I stand by what I said.[/quote]

pookie, you know I hate it when you do this. Just man up and admit your mistake.

I wrote:

What you cannot seem to do is realize that George Bush has not only admitted personal errors, he has taken steps to try to rectify them.

You responded:

You mean he’s found people around to blame for his mistakes. That’s how he “takes responsibility.”

You are correct in that you “technically” didn’t type the word Bush.

However, is there anyone with a functioning brainstem who thinks you weren’t referring to Bush.

Wait, the pronoun “he” refers to all politicians?

Get serious.

Jeffro The Clown Who Only Watches Faux News and Lives in An Alternate Reality And Is a SWAT Expert Because He Reads Every Issue of Soldier Of Fortune and he misspelled a word.

So was Sherman correct in his prosecution of the March, or was he a terrorist?

Bring back the thread!!!

[quote]JeffR wrote:
pookie, you know I hate it when you do this.[/quote]

Don’t give me incentive to do it more…

[quote]
Just man up and admit your mistake.

I wrote:

What you cannot seem to do is realize that George Bush has not only admitted personal errors, he has taken steps to try to rectify them.

You responded:

You mean he’s found people around to blame for his mistakes. That’s how he “takes responsibility.”

You are correct in that you “technically” didn’t type the word Bush.

However, is there anyone with a functioning brainstem who thinks you weren’t referring to Bush.[/quote]

Yes, I was referring to Bush. I though you were responding to this:

We need honesty. People able to admit when they’ve been wrong. Not find someone to blame for having been wrong; taking responsibility for it. We need people who can take decisions that really matter for the people they represent, not for the lobbies and campaign contributors. There is a lot wrong with the current system; a lot of it encourages exactly the kind of rotten government you’re having. Unfortunately for you, for all the idiots involved at the top, it’s in their interest to maintain the status quo, or worse, to grab even more power with even less accountability. Sad times.

Which I also wrote previously in the thread and by which I stand.

For your example of Bush taking responsibility, I’ll say this:

  1. MSNBC: Pretty weak. Bush’s admitted error is “not sending more troops sooner…” So he’s admitting that he’s mismanaged the war, but will correct that by doing more of the same? Are we supposed to believe that adding 5% more troops will now produce results? How dumb must one be to buy that?

  2. CNN: He’s doing exactly what I complained about. Appearing to take responsibility, but in the same breath blaming the intelligence services of the country for his mistake. “I made a mistake because I had bad info.” Maybe if he stopped staffing everything with sycophantic cronies and incompetent party-line ass-kissers, he’d get more reliable info…

  3. Some blog: Are you kidding me? That’s not taking responsibility for a mistake. He’s apologizing for using the phrase “bring’em on!”

Come on, you can’t be serious. At least stick Katrina in there somewhere. You know, the event where you lost a whole city? Bush took responsibility for that fiasco. He also said that Michael Brown had done “a hell of a job.”

[quote]Wait, the pronoun “he” refers to all politicians?

Get serious.[/quote]

I’m trying.

[quote]Jeffro The Clown Who Only Watches Faux News and Lives in An Alternate Reality And Is a SWAT Expert Because He Reads Every Issue of Soldier Of Fortune and he misspelled a word[/quote] And Needs to Quote Better So Confusion Is Avoided in The Replies.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
mal,

Again, if I show you the evidence, will you admit error?

I’ll make it irrefutable.

Deal?

JeffR

[/quote]

It is not that easy. With something like personal responsibility, it is a measure of character and integrity. You may be right that he has demonstrated some sense and humility in the face of his fuck-ups, but the signal to noise ratio is vastly skewed against him. So please, show me your examples, because I would like to see them. I have not seen any, and I would like that to have been in error.