Shafted at Work

Off Topic
41

I graduated with a 4 year degree 2 years ago. I had my education paid for via scholarship so thankfully no debt. When I was job hunting my senior year, I applied for jobs till I was blue in the face, but the only one I landed was one where I had known the owner for like 10 years. It’s a great job, one that requires a degree, and I am thankful every day to not be one of my underemployed friends.

Honestly though, at this point, if you aren’t going to college for free or have a very clear plan lined up, I do think it’s a waste of fucking money. I mean 99% of it isn’t educating you anyway. I don’t fucking use the history of western civilizations or design of experiments or fucking psychology in my job. With a few exceptions the only reason you have to go to college is just to get a goddamn piece of paper saying you did it, because people arbitrarily won’t hire you without that.

If the place I work had hired me straight out of high school, I’d have 4 years more experience in my field and be even better at my job than I am now. There are exceptions like I said. Some medical jobs and probably engineering and whatnot. But there are a ton of really well paying jobs for which the best education is just getting started, getting trained, and getting experience. And for the careers where you do need additional specific schooling, you could cut that down to like 2 years tops if you didn’t make them do a whole bunch of other unrelated bullshit.

I can’t even count the number of people I know in my generation who got their degree and are now underemployed working someplace that doesn’t even require you to be out of high school. The way the job market is now businesses would be crazy to hire someone like them or me when there are people out of work with 5 or 10 years experience in the field willing to do the job for the same pay just so they won’t be unemployed anymore.

I’m really not trying to just bitch about it. I’m just saying… from the perspective of people my age (early-mid 20’s) college seems like a total fucking scam nowadays.

42

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I belive we’re circling back to the time where a trade degree is infinitely more valuable than graduating from a traditional school.[/quote]

If you took out “infinitely more” and put “equally” I would say you are correct.

But both people depend on each other. The plumber needs people to hire him, and the desk jockey needs his pipes fixed.[/quote]

I married the wife to fix the pipes…

I agree with you Beans[/quote]

Fair enough, but how many plumbers out there are working at Chili’s 'cause they can’t get a “real” job? There are literally thousands of recent graduates who are in that exact position right now. It’s scary out there. And I mean this with no offense, but y’all both graduated a long time ago (in a relative sense). Things are much more different now then they were even 6-7 years ago. Shit’s changed.
[/quote]
WF I do occupational medicine, I am the guy who does all the pre-employment physicals, and such for all those jobs you are talking about.

Its a great living, however it is far from a consistent profession though.

Also people are people some succeed in any profession and some do not, my dad started out as a Pipe Fitter and ended up a Project Super. [/quote]

That seems like a fairly recession proof gig. But, I also imagine it’s fairly stressful. Bet your pop did pretty damn well as a super. Did his advancement require any extra schooling or certs, or was it strictly performance based?[/quote]
Yea I actually found a niche where the Govt has mandated things from Company’s and not many companys do what we do. Work is stressful, I would love to be a fucking NFL scout, but I am sure it would get stressful also.

Pops is old school and earned his way, he was Project manager for Bay const for 20 years, then semi retired to run a cattle ranch in Beeville. Recently went back to work supervising Engineers and such for 300K a year building power plants in Okla and fixing to go to Chile. Nothing but a HS education. [/quote]

That’s badass man. It must be comforting knowing you’re secure where you’re at. Speaking of cyclical, I can see things going back to the way it was in your pops day, at least in certain fields. How many companies have failed (or at least gotten themselves in trouble) 'cause they replaced the guy who knew what he was doing with the highly decorated graduate with little experience and a slightly cheaper price tag?

43

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Beans (and Derek or anyone else with education and experience), honest question: do you foresee our system going back “to the way it was” any time soon, or are we in a new era? Obviously there’s no way to predict it either way, I’m just asking for your personal, educated opinion.[/quote]
Most things are cyclical in nature, I do know that right now there are shortages of good tradesman fucking Millwrights are a dying trade for sure.

I would assume we will reach a balance of sorts, a lot of times advancements in technology decides these things. A lot of trades disappeared with the advent of cheaper/disposable/computer driven products. Look at Detroit. [/quote]

One of the problems is one of respect. Some of the smartest people I know are machinst yet they were treated as disposable tools. It is what drove me from the trade.

Additionally, it is not like tradesmen don’t go to school, just not for as long. A lot of the classes I took for trades allowed me to test out of classes in my design degree.
[/quote]
100% agree, but I was raised to respect all, I started out working in a nursing home as the lawn boy to housekeeping to nurses aide. Unfortunately there is that misconception that a degree means you have communication skills and are a good human being.

44

As far as job make up going forward:

White collar will require more and more school.

Blue collar, because we are fucking American’s and can overcome anything, we will find a way to re-introduce “unskilled” labor into our work force in a way that people can live on the wages and be happy, and companies can remain profitable and compete.

We need, and I can’t stress need enough, to move away from valuing our self worth based off what useless shit we own, and find a way to be happy with the content of our lives, not what is parked in the direvway or wrapped around our wrist.

45

[quote]csulli wrote:
I graduated with a 4 year degree 2 years ago. I had my education paid for via scholarship so thankfully no debt. When I was job hunting my senior year, I applied for jobs till I was blue in the face, but the only one I landed was one where I had known the owner for like 10 years. It’s a great job, one that requires a degree, and I am thankful every day to not be one of my underemployed friends.

Honestly though, at this point, if you aren’t going to college for free or have a very clear plan lined up, I do think it’s a waste of fucking money. I mean 99% of it isn’t educating you anyway. I don’t fucking use the history of western civilizations or design of experiments or fucking psychology in my job. With a few exceptions the only reason you have to go to college is just to get a goddamn piece of paper saying you did it, because people arbitrarily won’t hire you without that.

If the place I work had hired me straight out of high school, I’d have 4 years more experience in my field and be even better at my job than I am now. There are exceptions like I said. Some medical jobs and probably engineering and whatnot. But there are a ton of really well paying jobs for which the best education is just getting started, getting trained, and getting experience. And for the careers where you do need additional specific schooling, you could cut that down to like 2 years tops if you didn’t make them do a whole bunch of other unrelated bullshit.

I can’t even count the number of people I know in my generation who got their degree and are now underemployed working someplace that doesn’t even require you to be out of high school. The way the job market is now businesses would be crazy to hire someone like them or me when there are people out of work with 5 or 10 years experience in the field willing to do the job for the same pay just so they won’t be unemployed anymore.

I’m really not trying to just bitch about it. I’m just saying… from the perspective of people my age (early-mid 20’s) college seems like a total fucking scam nowadays.[/quote]

Your situation and thought process mirrors almost all of my friends’. Almost to a man they’ve said if they could do it again they’d skip school and get a trade degree.

46

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
As far as job make up going forward:

White collar will require more and more school.

Blue collar, because we are fucking American’s and can overcome anything, we will find a way to re-introduce “unskilled” labor into our work force in a way that people can live on the wages and be happy, and companies can remain profitable and compete.

We need, and I can’t stress need enough, to move away from valuing our self worth based off what useless shit we own, and find a way to be happy with the content of our lives, not what is parked in the direvway or wrapped around our wrist.[/quote]

Great post. These things are why the rest of the world loves America, but hates Americans. Hopefully we can shift out of this.

47

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^ not necessarily, but schools while purpose is as a vessel to take you to your career. As it stands, going to school is proving a waste of time in that regard. Let’s also not ignore the absolutely ridiculous and time wasting pre-reqs like college algebra and everything after. If you’re not a mathematician or physicist, it’s a complete waste of time as you’ll NEVER use that shit in your life. Trade schools skip all that and teach you directly what you need to get a job in your chosen field. Plumbers, electricians, a/c repairmen, etc… All make a good to great living (depending on your definition) and didn’t need to “learn” any of the nonsense you’re forced to sit through at your local college.[/quote]

Well, whether or not the theoretical coursework like algebra has utility is an interesting debate (I’d say anything to make you smarter is by that fact useful), but it doesn’t have much to do with what I was talking about.

College degrees acted as shields in the recession/recovery:

Note that they’re not talking about a minor statistical difference but hundreds of thousands of jobs.

And again, a college degree tends to add about a million in pay over it’s holder’s lifetime. That’s on average–some less, some far more.

This is not to knock tradesmen. Becoming a plumber is pretty much synonymous with stability. But to say that college degrees no longer have value or that people in general are statistically better off without them is simply not supported by the evidence.

48

^ “Nearly all of the jobs recovered since the economic downturn have required a post-secondary degree.”

That’s a serious finding.

49

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?

50

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.

51

[quote]smh23 wrote:
^ “Nearly all of the jobs recovered since the economic downturn have required a post-secondary degree.”

That’s a serious finding.[/quote]

Who did the study? I can think of at least 10 people I personally know with degrees from fairly prominent schools who aren’t doing anything in their chosen field and are making just decent money.

52

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

Basic Nursing (I hope) moves towards this actually. I have my masters and considered an Advanced Practice Nurse, where I can prescribe, diagnose and treat patients. They are moving to a PhD as a the minimum for Advanced Practice in 2015, (I will be grandfathered in)

53

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

(I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

Literally

54

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Your situation and thought process mirrors almost all of my friends’. Almost to a man they’ve said if they could do it again they’d skip school and get a trade degree.
[/quote]

put me in that group too. I was told when I started college to go to trade school and I didn’t listen. wish I had.

55

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

(I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

Literally
[/quote]
Lol okay that made me chuckle.

In other news my grandchild can hear for the first time yesterday and he turns 2 in Dec

56

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

Basic Nursing (I hope) moves towards this actually. I have my masters and considered an Advanced Practice Nurse, where I can prescribe, diagnose and treat patients. They are moving to a PhD as a the minimum for Advanced Practice in 2015, (I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

I’m assuming this is the same as a nurse practitioner?

57

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

Basic Nursing (I hope) moves towards this actually. I have my masters and considered an Advanced Practice Nurse, where I can prescribe, diagnose and treat patients. They are moving to a PhD as a the minimum for Advanced Practice in 2015, (I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

I’m assuming this is the same as a nurse practitioner?
[/quote]
Yes you can be a nurse practitioner in Emergency, family, peds, psych etc so the blanket term Advanced Practice has been pushed.

58

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

(I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

Literally
[/quote]
Lol okay that made me chuckle.

In other news my grandchild can hear for the first time yesterday and he turns 2 in Dec[/quote]

Congratulations! What was the cause?

59

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
^ “Nearly all of the jobs recovered since the economic downturn have required a post-secondary degree.”

That’s a serious finding.[/quote]

Who did the study? I can think of at least 10 people I personally know with degrees from fairly prominent schools who aren’t doing anything in their chosen field and are making just decent money.[/quote]

It was Georgetown. To preempt the criticism of this coming from a university, the study’s findings are solid and have not been challenged. The numbers do not lie, and they heavily favor degree-holders.

I too know many people in the situation you’re describing. But for obvious reasons a collection of relevant data trumps personal anecdotes every single time.

edited

60

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I can see this. There are a handful of jobs that as recently as five years ago required just a bachelors and now require a PhD or its equivalent. That alone will weed out potential applicants to the program.[/quote]

Any examples?[/quote]

Off the top physical therapist, though I could be off on the timeline. There’s a pt that worked in my old building that had his masters in pt but told me it wasn’t a requirement when he got it, he did it for the potential extra income. Now, it’s a required PhD.[/quote]

(I will be grandfathered in)[/quote]

Literally
[/quote]
Lol okay that made me chuckle.

In other news my grandchild can hear for the first time yesterday and he turns 2 in Dec[/quote]

Congratulations! What was the cause?
[/quote]
Thanks long story, dealing with my daughter being young, my X being a dumb ass and just life.

He had fluid and failed hearing tests over a year ago, was getting speech therapy and finally things got taken care of.