Hey guys! New on here…I’ve read and researched, I have a great lifting routine down to a T, I’ve been training for years, I’m 6’4" and 285, I’m 30, and I have pretty good eating habits. My question is; I feel ready to do a cycle I have the gear and plan to do a ten week Test-e 500/wk with a dbol kick start wks 1-4. I have my pct all worked out.
My question has to do with arimidex vs Nolvadex. What I find confusing is that some people say that you need an AI especially with Test/Dbol as they both have a higher Aromatization factor. However other people say that you don’t need an AI and that the excess estrogen is actually beneficial to muscle gains, Bone health, immune system ect. Seeing as how I’m not super lean(I don’t know my BF% but it’s most likely 15-18%) I’m more likely to suffer negative sides. Bottom line is should I use arimidex from the beginning? Use Nolva if I encounter gyno? Wait until I notice bloating, and other symptoms and then use Adex? I need some help with this. Thanks in advance!!
Not sure how excess estrogen would be beneficial to muscle gains, since that is not one of estrogens functions. I think this is bro-science - without an AI on test/dbol, you will retain water resulting in faster weight gain. This is not muscle, it is fluid and this is where guys blow up on cycle and then deflate rapidly when they come off. Not to say this is all you would gain in this scenario, but that is what the bulk of it would be.
i think some guys interpret the water gain as something else. however, high estrogen levels need to be dealt with to allow your HPTA to recover. even if you don’t want to run an AI the whole cycle, one would be well served to add it in at the end of the cycle prior to PCT.
also, if you still get a touch of gyno on cycle, i’d suggest raloxifene, as it is more effective than nolva at treating gyno (and not as effective at raising test, thus allowing nolva to be used for PCT). additionally, armidex and nolva don’t work well together.
I’d suggest running your AI @ .25mg EOD, then adjust (if needed). Keep the nolva on standby in case gyno symptoms appear, at which point use it. Otherwise, keep it for PCT. Are you running hcg during/after cycle?
Yes you need some E2. The point is to not go after extremely low E2.
You should be trying to have E2 in the lower 20’s. Higher levels of E2 oppose the effectiveness of testosterone on gene expression inside the cells and that manifests itself as diminished libido and more fat gain. The brain and mood will be affected. If E2 is too high or too low, you will feel like crap. Some guys are anastrozole over-responders who need to take 1/4th the expected dose.
arimidex vs Nolvadex.
Aromatase inhibitors reduce T–>E2 aromatization. So that reduces the supply side.
SERM’s reduce the effects of a given level of estrogens in SELECTED tissues. SERM’s typically increase E2 levels, increasing the supply side. If you take a SERM, this does not mean that you will not need an AI. Only selected tissues benefit from a SERM.
SERM throughout your cycle will keep LH/FSH levels from crashing which keeps the testes functional. You don’t need a lot of SERM to do this [10mg/day]. Large SERM doses can cause high T–>E2 inside the testes and anastrozole is very ineffective in reducing that, so E2 levels become unmanageable. You also do not want to have high LH during your cycle or PCT because when you get off of PCT, the testes should not be expected to work well in an environment of sinking LH stimulation. A lot of PCT advice gets that horribly wrong. And you should be on 0.5mg/week anastrozole at the end of your PCT cycle and should cruise on that to prevent estrogen rebound.
Thanks KSman! Your advice was definitely helpful! But to be honest after reading your post I felt like I knew even less lol! Not a bad thing! It just made me realize how much more complex this can be! Especially the deeper you get into the science of what’s going on in your body. Like a lot of guys, my worst nightmare is to experience some horrible side effect ie; Gyno, hormonal shutdown, or any of the other horror stories whispered at gyms across the country!
[quote]KSman wrote:
Yes you need some E2. The point is to not go after extremely low E2.
You should be trying to have E2 in the lower 20’s. Higher levels of E2 oppose the effectiveness of testosterone on gene expression inside the cells and that manifests itself as diminished libido and more fat gain. The brain and mood will be affected. If E2 is too high or too low, you will feel like crap. Some guys are anastrozole over-responders who need to take 1/4th the expected dose.
arimidex vs Nolvadex.
Aromatase inhibitors reduce T–>E2 aromatization. So that reduces the supply side.
SERM’s reduce the effects of a given level of estrogens in SELECTED tissues. SERM’s typically increase E2 levels, increasing the supply side. If you take a SERM, this does not mean that you will not need an AI. Only selected tissues benefit from a SERM.
SERM throughout your cycle will keep LH/FSH levels from crashing which keeps the testes functional. You don’t need a lot of SERM to do this [10mg/day]. Large SERM doses can cause high T–>E2 inside the testes and anastrozole is very ineffective in reducing that, so E2 levels become unmanageable. You also do not want to have high LH during your cycle or PCT because when you get off of PCT, the testes should not be expected to work well in an environment of sinking LH stimulation. A lot of PCT advice gets that horribly wrong. And you should be on 0.5mg/week anastrozole at the end of your PCT cycle and should cruise on that to prevent estrogen rebound.[/quote]
KSman, glad to see you back over here!
i have a quick question for you: why do high SERM doses cause high estrogen in the testes? is it simply higher LH that causes higher T that aromatizes to more estrogen, or by some other mechanism?
personally, i’ve always felt large SERM doses were simply unproven and unnecessary, but combining an AI and SERM in PCT is very effective…