[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Prof X you must be a huge fan of Chubby Checker because you are the master of the twist. I clearly articulated in my post that the assertion many people made that because possibly up to 1.8% of LEO’s abuse the power they have then all LEO’s therefore are guilty of the same is ridiculous. I will say it once again since you don’t seem to understand…I don’t condone and find it reprehensible any abuse of power by any LEO, but 1.8% of bad apples does not spoil the bunch. If you have studies that show the incidence of abuse is higher then by all means present it.[/quote]
1,8% of bad apples will spoil any amount of apples if you do not remove them.
True story. [/quote]
1.8% includes alleged misconduct, by the way.[/quote]
And excludes those that never filed a complaint because they are in prison now or dead. [/quote]
Actually, I added 6000 cops to the actual number reported to account for unreported incidents. Which I think was generous considering the litigious nature of our society.[/quote]
Bullshit. Where do you live?
In Philadelphia, they damn near made it impossible to report an officer. They just had to change the procedure. And they STILL had trouble making precincts follow the new rules. If you live in the City, most people don’t even fucking bother. They are so fucking lawless and arrogant, they jacked up a State Rep recently and got in hot water.
You must live in bumfuck USA. Surely, you have never seen big city police in action.
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Prof X you must be a huge fan of Chubby Checker because you are the master of the twist. I clearly articulated in my post that the assertion many people made that because possibly up to 1.8% of LEO’s abuse the power they have then all LEO’s therefore are guilty of the same is ridiculous. I will say it once again since you don’t seem to understand…I don’t condone and find it reprehensible any abuse of power by any LEO, but 1.8% of bad apples does not spoil the bunch. If you have studies that show the incidence of abuse is higher then by all means present it.[/quote]
1,8% of bad apples will spoil any amount of apples if you do not remove them.
True story. [/quote]
1.8% includes alleged misconduct, by the way.[/quote]
And excludes those that never filed a complaint because they are in prison now or dead. [/quote]
But does include those who’d make a complaint in order to complicate the case against them. Or, those who simply make a complaint as a bit of get back, even if the officer executed his duty lawfully.
Two things. First, I’m not impressed by the number. Especially in the face of hysterics. You would’ve thought there was a pitched battle going on, having read this thread. Secondly, I know the number of misconduct reports COULD never be 0.0. So, when I look at a figure like 1.8%, and then at how many folks are put away for assault, battery, murder, robbery, fraud, rape, drunk driving, child-molestation, kidnapping…1.8% is pretty damn tiny, as far as trade-offs go. Again, 0.0% isn’t happening. Ever.[/quote]
Me thinks Sloth isn’t familiar with the STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE of charging the victim with a crime like resisting arrest or assault upon an officer. Me thinks Sloth is unaware that you really can’t just fuck someone up and get away with it. You DO have to charge them with something. When a victim is looking at a felony charge and evidence may be lacking as to brutality, where is your fucking priority? Defending the charges against you, or being just another criminal complaining about the treatment by the police?
Again, you guys can’t be familiar with big city policing.
And again, in an institution entrusted with the HIGHEST trust, a code of honor, not wall of silence, should exist. Can you, or anyone else for that matter, explain to me why it doesn’t exist? And why a wall of silence does exist? And why it’s tolerated?
I don’t know if the 1.8% if accurate or not. It doesn’t matter. We’re not talking about a factory assembly line with a 1.8% acceptable margin for error. We’re talking about civil rights, and the freedom of some victims. One is one too many.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Faulted logic, Sloth…considering many people wouldn’t report many instances for fear of retaliation BY the cops themselves especially in lower class neighborhoods. [/quote]
Well, the 1.8% is achieved after doubling the number of cops involved in misconduct? How much more? 3X? 4X? Maybe 100X? Are we going to argue if I say doubling it is probably closer to the truth, and you say to no, it’s 20 times worse? Exchange our personal experiences with cops? What we’ve heard from others? There’d be no point to it. Completely unscientific.
I’m not impressed by what we DO know. I also know 0.0% will never happen. Most importantly, I also know none of you guys are going to investigate my robbery, take the drunk off the road who might’ve ended up killing another one of my family members, or search for months–perhaps years–for that missing child in the news. None of us will be rushing across town to drag some stranger’s violent husband off her, routinely. We’re not going to be handling a spitting, bloody, shit splattered legs, clawing, biting tranny who just got into fisticuffs with his lover…sigh, I hope he isn’t infected. Are we the first to arrive on scene with the little girl, dead on the floor with a kitchen knife up her vagina, because her insane mother tried to exercise ‘whore’ demons out of a 4 yr old?
I took a stab at this as a career, around Atlanta, before deciding my butt needed to get out and into college. It was a year of some of the darkest, vile, and disgusting behavior and filth I’d ever seen. I have no friggen clue how these folks can make out a career out of it. I couldn’t. But those who do are there when we sure as hell won’t be. So, when I see f’ the police, and then see 1.8%…knowing that 0.0% is simply impossible…the trade off is pretty darn good for the services. Be vigilant, be involved, be persistent if needed. I agree. But, the f the police stuff is silly.[/quote]
More bullshit just as generalized as you claim my fuck the police statement is. Just last week, I did take a drunk of the road. And it’s often the COMMUNITY that searches for that little girl. And no one is kicking some woman’s ass next door to me on MY watch. Or mugging an old lady or weaker victim. Police are not omnipotent. For every “everyone looked the other way” video you might see, we are largely a society of decent moral people and most people try to do the right thing. Happens every fucking day without much fanfare.
You like statistic right? Well go search for the one measuring officer per population. Cops RESPOND to crime, they don’t prevent it. Society largely prevents crime, by our willingness to intervene or report, as decent citizens.
No one said the job isn’t difficult but let’s not pretend policing in Atlanta is the same as policing in a suburb in Pennsylvania. And let’s not pretend your 1.8% would hold up for the Atlanta PD.
“We can still holler and shout but we have to light the lamps that shed the light on corruption, injustice, ineptitude and abuse of power. When we do, you will see the villains scurry into the woodwork the way roaches do when you turn on the light”.
“We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around”
Not at all. You guys aren’t at home with 911-call centers in your livings rooms, with an assigned shift to cover precints. Let’s not act stupid. “Society would step in and fill the role.” Yeah, occasionally. Mostly it’d watch people get beaten down in pizza joints, and on sidewalks, without lifting a hand. Happens all the time. And without law enforcement, what ‘citizen justice’ could be found would often look like tall tree, short rope, flash mob justice. I suppose you could work out days of the week as to who has to keep prisoners locked up in their house, or something.
Not at all. You guys aren’t at home with 911-call centers in your livings rooms, with an assigned shift to cover precints. Let’s not act stupid. “Society would step in and fill the role.” Yeah, occasionally. Mostly it’d watch people get beaten down in pizza joints, and on sidewalks, without lifting a hand. Happens all the time. And without law enforcement, what ‘citizen justice’ could be found would often look like tall tree, short rope, flash mob justice. I suppose you could work out days of the week as to who has to keep prisoners locked up in their house, or something.
[/quote]
Nice fallacious construct.
You must hang over in PWI a lot. They do that a lot there.
It won’t work with me.
You neither responded to or rebutted my point.
Most crime is prevented by decent citizens and society at large. For every fight in the pizza place (LOL, great retort), there is a neighbor calling in some suspicious behavior in the neighborhood, or keeping an eye on the neighbor’s house who happens to be on vacation. Or dialing that number to report a drunk or aggressive driver. You know, THE FUCKING PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THE 911 CALL! It’s why criminals (normally) take great pains to go undetected in their crimes. I never stated or implied that society RESPONDS to crime as an occupation - that’s what LEO does - RESPOND to crime. However, if my simple and easy to understand point had no validity, you’d need a lot more police.
Step your game up. This isn’t a blind, flailing, fist pumping “fuck the police thread”. Is the title provocative? Yes, purposefully so. But we’ve moved beyond the provocative and we’ve been discussing real issues for pages now.
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Prof X you must be a huge fan of Chubby Checker because you are the master of the twist. I clearly articulated in my post that the assertion many people made that because possibly up to 1.8% of LEO’s abuse the power they have then all LEO’s therefore are guilty of the same is ridiculous. I will say it once again since you don’t seem to understand…I don’t condone and find it reprehensible any abuse of power by any LEO, but 1.8% of bad apples does not spoil the bunch. If you have studies that show the incidence of abuse is higher then by all means present it.[/quote]
I will admit my perspective may be skewed since I have lived in Wyoming for over 15 yrs which has a total population of less than 600,000 and not much can be hidden here.
1,8% of bad apples will spoil any amount of apples if you do not remove them.
True story. [/quote]
1.8% includes alleged misconduct, by the way.[/quote]
And excludes those that never filed a complaint because they are in prison now or dead. [/quote]
Actually, I added 6000 cops to the actual number reported to account for unreported incidents. Which I think was generous considering the litigious nature of our society.[/quote]
Bullshit. Where do you live?
In Philadelphia, they damn near made it impossible to report an officer. They just had to change the procedure. And they STILL had trouble making precincts follow the new rules. If you live in the City, most people don’t even fucking bother. They are so fucking lawless and arrogant, they jacked up a State Rep recently and got in hot water.
You must live in bumfuck USA. Surely, you have never seen big city police in action. [/quote]
Not at all. You guys aren’t at home with 911-call centers in your livings rooms, with an assigned shift to cover precints. Let’s not act stupid. “Society would step in and fill the role.” Yeah, occasionally. Mostly it’d watch people get beaten down in pizza joints, and on sidewalks, without lifting a hand. Happens all the time. And without law enforcement, what ‘citizen justice’ could be found would often look like tall tree, short rope, flash mob justice. I suppose you could work out days of the week as to who has to keep prisoners locked up in their house, or something.
[/quote]
Nice fallacious construct.
You must hang over in PWI a lot. They do that a lot there.
It won’t work with me.
You neither responded to or rebutted my point.
Most crime is prevented by decent citizens and society at large. For every fight in the pizza place (LOL, great retort), there is a neighbor calling in some suspicious behavior in the neighborhood, or keeping an eye on the neighbor’s house who happens to be on vacation. Or dialing that number to report a drunk or aggressive driver. You know, THE FUCKING PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THE 911 CALL! [/quote]
I’ve no idea what you’re disagreeing with as your scenarios involve the police being called. So, yeah, kind of at loss as to what has you bursting a blood vessel on this point.
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Prof X you must be a huge fan of Chubby Checker because you are the master of the twist. I clearly articulated in my post that the assertion many people made that because possibly up to 1.8% of LEO’s abuse the power they have then all LEO’s therefore are guilty of the same is ridiculous. I will say it once again since you don’t seem to understand…I don’t condone and find it reprehensible any abuse of power by any LEO, but 1.8% of bad apples does not spoil the bunch. If you have studies that show the incidence of abuse is higher then by all means present it.[/quote]
1,8% of bad apples will spoil any amount of apples if you do not remove them.
True story. [/quote]
1.8% includes alleged misconduct, by the way.[/quote]
And excludes those that never filed a complaint because they are in prison now or dead. [/quote]
Actually, I added 6000 cops to the actual number reported to account for unreported incidents. Which I think was generous considering the litigious nature of our society.[/quote]
Bullshit. Where do you live?
In Philadelphia, they damn near made it impossible to report an officer. They just had to change the procedure. And they STILL had trouble making precincts follow the new rules. If you live in the City, most people don’t even fucking bother. They are so fucking lawless and arrogant, they jacked up a State Rep recently and got in hot water.
You must live in bumfuck USA. Surely, you have never seen big city police in action. [/quote]
My city is way bigger than your city for what it’s worth. Houston Police, Harris County Police, Precinct Constables and State Troopers all patrol our streets. We can report officers. Some times our officers act like assholes, some times they don’t.
Never have I been on the scene of a beating though, so I really can’t say what happens to escalate such a situation and neither can you. I have been pulled over for speeding. I was in direct confict with the law. Usually I get a ticket. Occassionally I am given a warning and a “slow her down.” How abusive. Fucking blue wall.
As a young whipper snapper I got caught at booze parties. Same deal. Some times I was ticketed, some times I was told to “pour it out and call your parents while I watch.” The humanity! If I ran and was caught however, the cops could be a little rough, which is understandable. I showed myself to be unpredictable and insubordinate while breaking the law.
All you do is generalize, cry for people to support their arguments and then say your job as an insurance adjuster debunks said support.
Cops are necessary in society. Some are assholes. Some are not. Your incessant harping has no meaning.
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Prof X you must be a huge fan of Chubby Checker because you are the master of the twist. I clearly articulated in my post that the assertion many people made that because possibly up to 1.8% of LEO’s abuse the power they have then all LEO’s therefore are guilty of the same is ridiculous. I will say it once again since you don’t seem to understand…I don’t condone and find it reprehensible any abuse of power by any LEO, but 1.8% of bad apples does not spoil the bunch. If you have studies that show the incidence of abuse is higher then by all means present it.[/quote]
1,8% of bad apples will spoil any amount of apples if you do not remove them.
True story. [/quote]
1.8% includes alleged misconduct, by the way.[/quote]
And excludes those that never filed a complaint because they are in prison now or dead. [/quote]
Actually, I added 6000 cops to the actual number reported to account for unreported incidents. Which I think was generous considering the litigious nature of our society.[/quote]
Bullshit. Where do you live?
In Philadelphia, they damn near made it impossible to report an officer. They just had to change the procedure. And they STILL had trouble making precincts follow the new rules. If you live in the City, most people don’t even fucking bother. They are so fucking lawless and arrogant, they jacked up a State Rep recently and got in hot water.
You must live in bumfuck USA. Surely, you have never seen big city police in action. [/quote]
My city is way bigger than your city for what it’s worth. Houston Police, Harris County Police, Precinct Constables and State Troopers all patrol our streets. We can report officers. Some times our officers act like assholes, some times they don’t.
Never have I been on the scene of a beating though, so I really can’t say what happens to escalate such a situation and neither can you. I have been pulled over for speeding. I was in direct confict with the law. Usually I get a ticket. Occassionally I am given a warning and a “slow her down.” How abusive. Fucking blue wall.
As a young whipper snapper I got caught at booze parties. Same deal. Some times I was ticketed, some times I was told to “pour it out and call your parents while I watch.” The humanity! If I ran and was caught however, the cops could be a little rough, which is understandable. I showed myself to be unpredictable and insubordinate while breaking the law.
All you do is generalize, cry for people to support their arguments and then say your job as an insurance adjuster debunks said support.
Cops are necessary in society. Some are assholes. Some are not. Your incessant harping has no meaning.
[/quote]
Your fallacious arguments have no meaning. But if you were brighter, you’d know that, and you’d know how to stick to the topic and avoid fallacious arguments.
And by the way, I have witnessed police brutality - dozens of times in my life.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And by the way, I have witnessed police brutality - dozens of times in my life.
[/quote]
Did you report it all?[/quote]
No. And this is my point (and kinda X’s); it’s a fact of life in the big city. It’s like reporting the sun came up. It’s going nowhere, unless you have it on video. And even when it’s on video, they somehow get out of it. Philly police here repeatedly kicked, punched and stomped some “murder suspects” a few years back (they were innocent) while a TV helicopter filmed it. There were Supervisors standing by watching it. I do not believe anyone lost their job.
Do you think I’m going to walk up to the cops administering the ass-whooping and politely ask for their badge number? How does that work?
I have however prevented at least a few outside my friend’s club while I was working there, simply by intervening and getting them to walk away…because in each case, they were seconds away from a beating.
It IS a fact of life dealing with the police here.
And I myself was pushed into traffic repeatedly by a Camden cop who I used to play basketball with who didn’t even recognize me (I’m much bigger obviously now than in my basketball days), while a group of them surrounded me shouting contradictory order (hands out of pocket, hands up, down, etc.). Do you want to know that Capital offense that began this inappropriate conduct? My car radio was loud. Do you know what I did wrong? He didn’t like the way I looked at one of his partners when I exited my car. He then tried to literally pick a fight with me. He later remembered me, showed up in Court, and dropped all charges. He later lost his job for a pattern of his bullshit and he was also involved in more than 2 shootings that may not have been entirely kosher. But, and this is the point, he WAS NOT the exception for the Camden force. Like I said earlier, NJ State police have helped patrol there in recent years and they do not even tell Camden police what they are doing, where they are patrolling or anything regarding a raid being planned or executed.
Here’s the problem with a citizen witnessing against a cop; when they witness against a cop, they are a piece of shit with some past - he jaywalked once, did this, did that. If they are a witness for the prosecution and have a past it’s “we take them as we find them” but please believe them.
Like I said in an earlier post, they jacked up a State Rep in North Philly a few years back (he’s now suing the City) and NOTHING came of it in terms of discipline or a cop losing his job. Nothing.
They don’t pull this shit in the suburbs, they do it where the people are marginalized by income or class and they know they can get away with it.
I did read that. Cops are given the right to investigate suspicious activity. If they see a glass pipe and a bag of green stuff in a locked car for example, they can bust a window, confirm pot and make an arrest. If they see a potentially drunk driver they can investigate.
If, on the other hand, they see a car with no visible suspicious evidence but want to search it any ways, they have to get a warrant. This of course leaves a lot of grey area for a cop to use personal judgement but that is the nature of the human beast, which must be regulated.
[/quote]
You’re wrong. Where do you get your information. You need PROBABLE CAUSE for a search warrant. Please tell me you’re trolling. You cannot possibly be this ill-informed yet at the same time offering opinions that are completely wrong. [/quote]
"Exigent Circumstance - An emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect, or destruction of evidence. There is no ready litmus test for determining whether such circumstances exist, and in each case the extraordinary situation must be measured by the facts known by officials.[1]
Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts"
Probable Cause - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
“Probable” in this case may relate to actual statistical probability, or to a general standard of common behavior and customs. The context of the word “probable” here is not exclusive to community standards and does not predate statistics, as some have suggested.
"U.S. police do not need a search warrant to search a vehicle they stop on the road or in a non-residential area if they have probable cause to believe it contains contraband or evidence of a crime.[citation needed] In that case, police may search the passenger compartment, trunk, and any containers inside the vehicle capable of holding the suspected article. By comparison, under Australian law, police can exhaustively search any vehicle on a public road, and any electronic devices therein (mobile phone, computer), without the responsible persons’ permission, for evidence of criminal acts, with or without proof or suspicion of any kind.
Police do not need a search warrant, or even probable cause, to perform a limited search of a suspect’s outer clothing for weapons, if police have a reasonable suspicion to justify the intrusion - a Terry ‘stop and frisk.’"
You are wrong. Police determine probable cause, not you. You don’t know what they see, hear or think and like it or not, the responsibility to determine probable cause has been vested in them, not you. That being said, once a cop establishes probable case, he can, in exigent circumstances, search a person, car or even a home with out a warrant.
That is not to say the few shitheads who abuse power and civil rights should be given a pass, but accusing all cops of being the dirty few is unfair.
[/quote]
Is this the references you think support your stupid ass arguments and posts earlier? Really?
Although it’s exhausting, and you’re out of your league, I’ll play along since you won’t go away.
You stated that leaving Applebees while the establishment is open is “suspicious” and warrants a car stop (even absent the alleged domestic call). Exactly which reference above supports that position?
As for probable cause and warrants, nothing you posted supported your previous comments. Your comment that “If, on the other hand, they see a car with no visible suspicious evidence but want to search it any ways, they have to get a warrant” is utterly paradoxical and nonsensical to your other earlier posts. If they see no visible evidence they have no basis by which to apply for a search warrant.
Do you even know how a search warrant is obtained you idiot? You apply to a judge. Search warrants are usually based upon PROBABLE CAUSE (which you took the trouble to reference, but obviously do not understand). If you see “no visible evidence” you have to provide some basis by which a judge would grant a warrant. Probable Cause does not equal “because the police think so”.
You need to do better than cherry pick some references and legal terms you don’t even understand. Stick to the ad hominems (you should be good for at least another dismissive reference to my prior occupation), at least they’re entertaining (to you at least) and amusing to me (I enjoy it), but you’re too stupid to discuss the law. Stick to
“wholesale annuities” and trying reach 210lbs again
Now come back and tell us how much money you allegedly make again like you did in SAMA, because, ya know, that’s relevant.
well not reporting it isn’t going to do shit. With that mentality you certainly aren’t helping the situation. Reporting the supposed police brutality you saw can very well do some good, regardless of how pissed off you are about cops and the department.
edit: Chicago Cops get fucked all the time for getting reported.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
well not reporting it isn’t going to do shit. With that mentality you certainly aren’t helping the situation. Reporting the supposed police brutality you saw can very well do some good, regardless of how pissed off you are about cops and the department.
edit: Chicago Cops get fucked all the time for getting reported. [/quote]
So let me get this straight: You want ME to go walk into a police station populated by a bunch of assholes who have kicked my ass for fun on FOUR occasions in the past ten years and give them ALL OF MY INFORMATION? And then give them a REASON to kick my ass?
Keep in mind I’m a felon and I don’t have any badge numbers…
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
well not reporting it isn’t going to do shit. With that mentality you certainly aren’t helping the situation. Reporting the supposed police brutality you saw can very well do some good, regardless of how pissed off you are about cops and the department.
edit: Chicago Cops get fucked all the time for getting reported. [/quote]
So let me get this straight: You want ME to go walk into a police station populated by a bunch of assholes who have kicked my ass for fun on FOUR occasions in the past ten years and give them ALL OF MY INFORMATION? And then give them a REASON to kick my ass?
Keep in mind I’m a felon and I don’t have any badge numbers…
ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE?[/quote]
you don’t have to report directly to the police department. there are other sources.
don’t be so naive, someone out there will listen to you. take the time to do it instead of “oh another beating, oh well”
edit: i.e. try to obtain the police officer’s name and badge #. this shouldn’t be hard. Then write down what happened as soon as you can, and in as much detail as you can. Take pictures if there are physical signs of abuse on your body, making sure to take whole body pictures as well so they know it’s you. Hire a good attorney, and he can take the necessary steps.
