[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If a teacher can’t demand students remain silent for 1 minute, are they in the wrong for asking them to remain silent (unless called upon) for duration of the class?
Oh, or this:
“Students, please remain silent as I take a minute to gather my thoughs for the lecture I’m about to give.” Sneaky, sneaky.
As I read it, the issue was more around the requirement to teach the young kids what to do in the silence than the silence itself.[/quote]
No, no. That’s why I’m advising they should simply have a moment of silence. Every child will think, pray, or stare off into space during it.
You don’t need a law by Congress when the 14th amendment made the Bill of Rights applicable to the States, including, gasp, Illinois.
Or do you find fault with that Supreme Court precedent as well?
If you were in charge, how would you interpret the Establishment Clause? Assuming for purposes of this that you would hold it applicable to the States (just like the rest of the Bill of Rights).
Would it be ok for a state legislature to enact a law forcing public school teachers to lead students in prayer? Is everything fair game so long as we don’t have a state adopting X religion or denomination as the official religion?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
How is silence unconstitutional?[/quote]
Because the motivation for it is religious.It is intended to be a moment for prayer. It is not appropriate for a public facility like a school to force students to participate in religious activities.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
How is silence unconstitutional?
Because the motivation for it is religious.It is intended to be a moment for prayer. It is not appropriate for a public facility like a school to force students to participate in religious activities. [/quote]
Silence is a religious activity? Do you atheists never shut up? There’s a joke in there, don’t take it too seriously. But no, we’d simply state our motivation as providing a time of reflection, quite, and settling in. Now, just to head anyone off, we’re not debating how academically sound this may be, but the constitutionality of asking students to remain silent.
What if I ask my student to remain silent in my class unless called upon? Am I being a sneaky little teacher, hoping kids will use the class to get some prayer time in?
“Silence! The bell has rung, stop talking and moving about!”
“I’m sorry teacher, but that’s an unconstitutional request. If you ask us to remain silent in your class, little Timmy might say a prayer in his head.”
“Great Scott, you’re right! Please, no, feel free to talk throughout class! We can’t have the court thinking one of you might have found enough peace of mind to say a prayer.”
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
We always a “moment of silence” in highschool. I for one enjoyed it and I think it was rarely used even individually for prayer. Has doesn’t violate anyone’s religious rights in any way, unless of course your religion forbids you from staying silent a whole minute. [/quote]
That is not at all true. Those who are religious will use the moment for it’s intended purpose, prayer. While those who are not religious are put in the position of being forced to demonstrate their lack of religious belief.
We don’t do that for the same reason that we don’t force Jews to wear a yellow star of David armband. Because it is immoral for a government to single out people and force them to demonstrate their religious beliefs.
[quote]
The people saying teachers should use that time to teach sound like they’ve never been in a classroom. Being a good teacher is far more than shoving as many textbook pages as possible down kids throats. NOT TO MENTION IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF A MOMENT OF SILENCE.
Schools are about socialization, discipline, learning manners, lots of things. 1 single minute where things can be quiet so everyone can reflect on the day is beneficial to everyone.[/quote]
Bullshit. The intended purpose is to force children to demonstrate their religious beliefs in front of their peers in a government facility that they have a civil right to attend.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.[/quote]
Thank you. For all I care, little Suzie could use the time to think up new anti-religuous slogans for her atheist club (secret decoder ring included upon acceptance).
Yes, I can see a problem with instruction either way, fine. But a completely uncoached (as in, what they should be thinking) moment of silence? Come on…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.
Thank you. For all I care, little Suzie could use the time to think up new anti-religuous slogans for her atheist club (secret decoder ring included upon acceptance).
Yes, I can see a problem with instruction either way, fine. But a completely uncoached (as in, what they should be thinking) moment of silence? Come on…[/quote]
I said the exact same thing at least two times, and you are just now acknowledging it? Both CB and I mentioned that there is nothing wrong with a true, secular moment of silence where the government in on way tries to coerce anyone into performing a religious exercise. That was never a debate.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.
Check out the law, Cock, and you’ll see that that is the case.[/quote]
I was referring to Sloth’s hypothetical law, not the one that was referenced in the OP.
[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.
Thank you. For all I care, little Suzie could use the time to think up new anti-religuous slogans for her atheist club (secret decoder ring included upon acceptance).
Yes, I can see a problem with instruction either way, fine. But a completely uncoached (as in, what they should be thinking) moment of silence? Come on…
I said the exact same thing at least two times, and you are just now acknowledging it? Both CB and I mentioned that there is nothing wrong with a true, secular moment of silence where the government in on way tries to coerce anyone into performing a religious exercise. That was never a debate.[/quote]
See Sifu’s comments and then see me after class. After class, get it?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
How do you demonstrate a religious or nonreligious belief in silence? Again, is 24/7 chit-chat an atheist give away?
“Like, omg, like, my ESPN, like, read Susie’s mind, and she was so totally not praying.”
[/quote]
Sloth you are full of shit and playing stupid or you really are stupid. Everyone knows what the moment of silence is for. It is supposed to be for prayer.
It is very possible to demonstrate religious belief in silence. Because Rudy the Catholic kid is going to need to make the sign of the cross and start playing with prayer beads.
Ali the Muslim kid is going to need to roll out a prayer mat, kneel facing Mecca and start beating his head against the floor. Hershel the Jewish kid is going to need to break out his Yarmulke, prayer shawl, Torah and start rocking.
Then there is going to be little Billy Maher who every day at the moment of silence doesn’t do any rituals. Every day he does something different. One day he is picking his nose. Another day he is picking his ass. Then another day he spends his time irreverently farting.
Eventually Rudy, Ali, and Hershel are going to ask him What’s the matter with you Billy? We don’t see you praying. Don’t you believe in god?
Or Rudy might accuse Hershel of killing god. Or Ali is going to accuse Hershel of taking his land. Then Hershel might try to divert the negative attention from himself by pointing out that Billy doesn’t believe in god at all. So then Billy gets Hershel and Ali off of his case by pointing out that Sanjaya and Chung Lee are idolaters. Then at recess things get ugly.
That is why it is not appropriate for public schools to organize religious worship.
I don’t think we are debating the constitutionality of asking students to remain silent. I think the judge’s problem was with the teacher being required to instruct her pupils about prayer and it’s meaning beforehand.
I can’t say that it explicitly unconstitutional, but I do think that it could violate Illinois’ constitution section 4.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.[/quote]
That is not what the supreme court concluded when the issue of school prayer came before it. Because it was proposed that if atheist kids did not want to participate in the class prayer they didn’t have to or they could leave the classroom.
The problem that idea created is it would be forcing the atheist kids to identify themselves which would then subject them to religiously motivated abuse from their religious peers.
In the US we have constitutional rights to both freedom of religion and privacy.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth as long as there was no instuction to the children of how to spend that time (other than it being silent) then there is no issue at all.
Thank you. For all I care, little Suzie could use the time to think up new anti-religuous slogans for her atheist club (secret decoder ring included upon acceptance).
Yes, I can see a problem with instruction either way, fine. But a completely uncoached (as in, what they should be thinking) moment of silence? Come on…[/quote]
How can it be completely uncoached when everyone knows what it is supposed to be for? You are trying to justify pushing religion on people while trying to play innocent. You need to cut the bullshit.
Although, after reading the Act, I’m not sure how the judge got the impression that teachers were supposed to instruct pupils about prayer and its meaning.