[quote]KSman wrote:
That been said, a rare few do need 300mg/week to achieve what most get from 100mg/week.
[/quote]
I would also argue that if you need 200mg or 200mg a week, then there is a very high likelyhood that you have another problem with your system that is holding you back - and what you are actually doing is overdosing on T to try and compensate for those other issues - and going over your personal genetic optimal T level brings consequences of its own (ie - excess aromatase, etc.)
there are probably a few people who need 300mg a week to obtain ‘normal’ levels, but most don’t IF they address all of their underlying issues/problems (i.e. - Thyroid, Cortisol, Ferritin, B12, D3, fatty acids, diet, etc. etc. etc.)
I have since switched to E3D sub Q injections of 50mg.
This really feels good now.
Not so much bloating around the chest, no tingling in the fingetips or joint clicking, excellent strong libido and erections. Good energy levels, feel like I need less sleep, thinking clearly.
This is definitely the way forward for me, having started on the 200mg E3W rollercoaster !
Feel better than in years, also much stronger when lifting.
Will run this 'til the end of the month then get blood tested.
re some guys needing 300mg/week T esters: When these guys inject that much T, their serum TT levels are only in the 800-1000 range. They are hyper metabolizing the T or are not stripping off the ester groups from the T ester molecules. They may be spilling steroids into their urine. There are mechanisms in the kidneys that normally retain [spare] steroids in the body. Vit-D25 is also a steroid and some also need very high doses of vit-D3 to achieve decent serum vit-D25 levels. I have seen reports of a couple of guys who need very high doses of vit-D3 and who also need 300mg/week T injections. The conclusion is tempting; the kidneys may be involved. There are such cases where the cause is a genetic error. However, there may be cases where the problem is acquired.
So these high T doses are compensating for a problem that is different from what you suggest.
It’s now 6 weeks since I switched to E3D shots of 50mg cyp which i do sub-q into the abdomen and I have noticed some huge positive differences to the EW schedule.
I definitely feel much better, smoother and more consistent. Libido is strong, also seems like little or no bloating (which was a problem on the EW shots).
It took approx 4 weeks for things to settle down.
I had a blood test yesterday and just got the results, I’m wondering if I should push the dosage a little higher ?
Using a lab range of T - 241-827, E2 - 19.7-242
Testosterone 493
E2 101.16
This was done on day 3 just before the shot (not ideal I know but it was the only window of opportunity), so in theory this will be the lowest reading ?
E2 is still in range using this scale (pmol/L), and I’m not using any AI or HCG.
So, switching to E3D from EW has raised my level from 379 to 493.
I’d like to shoot for around 700 at the next blood test in 6 weeks - I was thinking about upping the shots from 50mg E3D to 70mg, or I could probably push it up a bit more with E2D…but thats too probably a little too many shots for me unless absolutely necessary. I would say it does feel as if it “tapers off” slightly on day 3. I did a shot yesterday, had a boner all night, jumped on the wife at 5 a.m. and now I am lusting after the wrinkly old housemaid (lol) ! 700 should be very interesting !
Any suggestions or comments appreciated
Finally a big big thanks to everyone who contributes to this site especially KS Man, I think it really is the cutting edge of TRT here…I feel simply incredible compared to a few months ago before I found this place when the useless local doctors had me on E3W jabs. Quality of life has returned in abundance, there must be so many men everywhere suffering unnecessarily.
So now you have E2=27.5 pg/ml. If you lower that, you will feel better yet. For your current T level, you probably need anastrozole 0.5mg/week in EOD divided doses.
I agree that you need more to get into high-normal range. But you tested at day 3. If you are a hyper metabolizer of T, then your day three level might be way below day 1.5, so you might try EOD doses and see how that feels then test. This would also increase your dose by 50% for 175mg/week. If you increase your T this way, and your serum T levels double, your need for adex will double as well.
I advise to not chase numbers. I am at 600 and doing really good - and feeling better then when I was at 1200. go by your symptoms and how you feel. if you push your T higher, you will have to compensate with Arimidex. I personally had weird results with arimidex, it seemed to give me too low estrogen symptoms even when my blood showed good levels and there is something about Arimidex possibily having a bigger impact on brain levels of E2 and not being able to stop testicular aromatase.
but please note this is just my own personal opinion and experience.
That is my current dilemma - at the moment I am feeling good on the E3d schedule without Adex, and the E2 is still acceptable at 27.
If I shoot for higher test numbers I will almost certainly need an AI - and with no research chemicals available here I can only buy the original 1mg tablets which are both expensive ($250 a box of 28) and very hard to micro dose accurately. The bottom line is Adex is a chemical, and I’d like to avoid putting that into my body if at all possible.
So perhaps lowering the dose to 30mg EOD might raise T levels but keep E2 in check ?
Would be good to get the T up to 600 and keep the E2 under 30 with no AI.
[quote]PureChance wrote:
… levels of E2 and not being able to stop testicular aromatase.
[/quote]
Only an issue with hCG and typically only an issue where hCG doses are too high; otherwise manageable with anastrozole for recommended low dose hCG. With LH replacement doses of hCG, T–>E2 in the testes should not be any higher than for normal men running on LH. There seems to be some who are exceptions, but they can be dealt with on a case by case approach. For most, this hCG issue is not a concern.
The reason that anastrozole cannot manage T–>E2 in the testes is that T levels in the testes can be up to 80 times higher than serum levels. As anastrozole is a competitive drug, it can be up to 80 times disadvantaged. If hCG dosing is high and one attempts to reduce serum levels of E2 with anastrozole, T–>E2 rates in the testes will still be high. The high dose of anastrozole then depresses T–>E2 in other tissues in the body. When that reduces E2 production in fat tissue, that probably is not a concern.
But E2 is often produced in tissues where it is needed locally, such as the skin and brain. One might then be having problems with low E2 in the brain while serum levels are still too high relative to a target of serum E2=22pg/ml. This is where more is better really fails. Doctors who prescribe high dose hCG can really make a mess of things. [The BB bros have historically used harmful doses of hCG as well and have taught each other the same.]
I have reduced my dose of T-Cyp from 200mg a week to 22mg EOD. I also found that 200-250iu of HCG EOD is better than 150iu or 300iu for me personally, but everyone is different and responds differently.
DHEA supplements caused huge estrogen problems for me that required excess Arimidex (2mg daily) to try and control.
less T-Cyp + no external DHEA = no need for any Arimidex
It seems like if you need arimidex to control your aromatase then what you are really doing is ignoring your bodies feedback. Your body is over its genetic optimal level of Testosterone and trying to take evasive action by dumping more of it to E2. Rather than take Arimidex, why not lower your T dose down (to not exceed your personal optimal level) and figure out what else might be causing your symptoms, like low cortisol, low thyroid, etc. Fix those other issues and you should feel amazing.
Wow, the conversion formula ksman gave is good in that now i can compare to others and struth my levels are high, E2 39 and 54 on 50mg of dhea and have since stopped dhea. HAve found a good doc who prescribed my arimidex 1/2 tab twice a week, not on TRT, my total t is in the upper 1/3 and free T low, dhea is also low. 4 weeks on arimidex and im feeling the difference and so is the mrs, lol plus the waist has gone down some.
My next lot of tests will be interesting and hoping that my E2 levels are normal and this increases my freeT levels, then i will look at using dhea again as well as pregnenolone. I have an immune defiency so get run down easily an im hoping this helps plus adding the dhea is suppose to help the immune system, i hope.
I have also started to self medicate with metformin as i have crappy insulin sensitivity and a family history of diabetes, so my idea in using metformin is to help me lose belly fat(which it is at 500mg twice a day) and lower E2 as well as arimidex and in the end have better insulin sensitivty after the weight loss. I have read that metformin effects Testosterone levels in a negative way but it is helping me lose weight, so when the weight is down im hoping it improves my total hormone profile and insulin sensitivity and then come off metformin. Any opinions welcome.
one question: why do you think DHEA will help your immune system? I can’t remember the exact pathways off the top of my head, but I would think pregnenelone would do more for your immune system as it can metabolize into cortisol, which is an immune supporter. DHEA is part of your androgen hormones, so not sure exactly how that would affect immune system except maybe by feedback.
disclaimer: i’m not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination so what I just said may be absolutely retarded!
I have read dhea strengthens the immune system through increasing the activity of natural killer cells and other lymphocytes. My understanding is that a fully functioning hormonal system helps strengthen the entire body, not just muscles. Also Dr Atkins of the atkins diet has written that the sicker someone is, he has found the lower their dhea levels are and increasing them has a carry over effect to the immune system.
I think the benefits of dhea arent just through enhancing other hormonal pathways. Has for pregnenolone, im trying to find more info on this and can only see it being beneficial in the right amounts.
I am currently doing TRT here in Chiang Mai Thailand if the OP would like and if the forum allows I can give you generic names prices and sources for your Arimidex, HCG and Test E as well as a Lab to get $75 a time full lab work. I will also be making a run to Bangkok for rHGH supplies and can check with the pharmacies there to see if you can mail order your supplies from them for less.
Thanks for letting me know and I can well imagine why! If anyone needs this info they can always have me email it to them directly rather than using the forum. The sources I use here are all legitimate prescription pharmacies and blood analysis labs. Much of the problem here in Thailand is that the pharmacies are not familiar with the generic names for Arimidex. If you ask for anastrol it costs you $60 for 50 1 mg tabs as opposes $120 for only 28 tabs of Arimidex. The OP is probably not fluent in Thai and is being taken on a treasure hunt by the local indigenous personnel.
Bit of a delay updating here as haven’t drawn blood for a couple of months (forgot about it) but was in the vicinity of the lab a couple of days ago so thought I better call in. I am injecting 50 mg of enanthate E3D sub-q.
I am pleased with the results -
Testosterone (ng/dl) (241-827) 741
E2 (pmol/L) (19.7-242) 118.4 (which equates to 32 in the more familiar measurement).
I have made a couple of changes over the last couple of months that I think have helped.
First, I switched from semi UGL (asiapharma) cypionate to Schering Testoviron Enanthate, but this is much more hassle as it doesn’t come in multidose vial only 1ml amps.
Also, I have been much more careful with food intake, been training weights harder and have lost approx 5 kilos of fat (2" off waist).
The other change I made was to add in some Proviron. I started on 50mg a day, but although erections were very strong and libido was in the stratosphere, it felt like my prostate was a bit “warm” and more noticeable. I cut the proviron back to 25mg a day, now it feels good. I understand that Proviron (mesterolone) is not FDA approved in the US so there is probably not much experience with it as a TRT application on the board.
The E2 is a bit high at 32, so I will finally get chance to use the expensive Adex. Will try a quarter of a tab E3D to start and adjust it from there - does that sound about right ?
I am extremely happy with general mood, libido, and especially clarity of thought on TRT. My libido has settled down a bit now, as before it was ridiculous and getting me into trouble which is not hard in Thailand.
Tweaking my protocol has enabled me to raise T from 379 to 741 whilst maintaining the same dose of 100mg a week. I nearly opted to up the dose, but glad I stuck with it, although how big a part possibly underdosed T played in that remains unclear.
Furricane, I am in Rayong. I do speak Thai fluently but I didn’t know to ask for anastrole, duh, and would be grateful for a shove in the right direction re. that.
Also, I just read on another thread you had procured some HGH, that was something else I looked at but there seems to be so much fake stuff around everywhere - did you try yet ? Was that bought in BKK ? Drop me a PM anytime.
one of the things you may want to look at it your cortisol levels. low cortisol is one of the contributors to higher amoratase of T to E2. If your cortisol is low and you correct it, then you may find your E2 looking better without an AI. just a thought/option.
also have you ever tested your thyroid TSH levels? I am just curious as it seems like when one system is off (testosterone) it stresses the other systems (cortisol, thyroid, etc).