SCOTUS to Take on Health Reform

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Looks like the Healthcare Law is in trouble…

Justices signal possible trouble for health insurance mandate

Reporting from Washington?
The Supreme Court’s conservative justices Tuesday laid into the requirement in the Obama administration’s healthcare law that Americans have health insurance, as the court began a much-anticipated second day of arguments on the controversial legislation.

Even before the administration’s top lawyer could get three minutes into his defense of the mandate, some justices accused the government of pushing for excessive authority to require Americans to buy anything.

“Are there any limits,” asked Justice Anthony Kennedy, one of three conservative justices whose votes are seen as crucial to the fate of the unprecedented insurance mandate.

PHOTOS: Demonstrations outside Supreme Court

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. suggested that the government might require Americans to buy cellphones to be ready for emergencies. And Justice Antonin Scalia asked if the government might require Americans to buy broccoli or automobiles.

"If the government can do this, what else can it … do?? Scalia asked.

The tough questioning of the administration’s lawyer is no sure sign of how the justices will rule when they hand down their decision in the case, Department of Health and Human Services, et al., vs. State of Florida, et al., likely in June.

But Tuesday?s arguments may signal trouble for the mandate, widely seen as a cornerstone of the law’s program for achieving universal healthcare coverage for the first time in the nation?s history.

With the court’s four liberal justices expected to vote to uphold the sweeping law, the administration will have to win over at least one of the five justices on the court’s conservative wing.

Few believe Justices Clarence Thomas or Samuel A. Alito Jr. will support the mandate. That has made Scalia, Kennedy and Roberts the focus of intense speculation for months.

Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. tried to argue that the insurance mandate would not open the door to other requirements to buy products because healthcare is unique.

"Virtually everyone in society is in this market,? said Verrilli, who was prodded on by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and other liberal justices. That means that if someone elects not to get health insurance but then gets sick, as everyone will, that person will pass along costs to everyone else, Verrilli explained.

To prevent that, the administration has argued that that Congress can use its authority under the commerce clause of the Constitution to impose the mandate as a means to regulate health insurance.

The Constitution says Congress has the power to “regulate commerce” and to impose taxes to promote the general welfare. The court has in the past upheld federal laws regulating all manner of business – from agriculture and aviation to who can be served at the corner coffee shop – and Roberts, Scalia and Kennedy have in other cases supported the government?s broad authority in that area.

But Tuesday, the three – and Alito – repeatedly criticized the requirement to buy health insurance as forcing people to enter a market, which they said was a new and troubling use of federal power.

“That changes the relationship of the individual to the federal government,” Kennedy said.

The architects of the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act included an insurance requirement after years of experience with insurance markets suggested that it is very difficult to guarantee health insurance to everyone, including people with preexisting medical conditions, without a way to induce younger, healthier people to get covered. That offsets the cost of insuring older, sicker ones.

Under the law, most Americans, starting in 2014, will have to get a health insurance plan that meets a basic set of standards or pay a tax penalty that will rise from $95 in 2014 to $695 in 2016. (The penalty for a family will be up to $2,085 in 2016.)

Health policy experts warn that without some incentive to get insurance, people could wait until they got seriously ill and then sign up for coverage, pushing up premiums for everyone.

The mandate was once embraced by both political parties. But more recently, it has been seized on by conservative critics of the healthcare law as an egregious example of government overreach. And it became the crux of lawsuits challenging the healthcare law by 26 states and plaintiffs represented by the conservative National Federation of Independent Business.

Over the last two years, federal courts across the country have issued conflicting rulings on the insurance requirement, though only one appellate court has backed the constitutional challenge to the law. Two high-profile conservative judges have supported the mandate.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-justices-signal-possible-trouble-ahead-for-health-insurance-mandate-20120327,0,423592.story[/quote]

Wow, very interesting…

[quote]pat wrote:

Those of us who feel the New Deal was a raw deal agree with the Courts decisions…[/quote]

You have to read the actual decisions - not all of them are the same.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

Looks like the Healthcare Law is in trouble…[/quote]

Reading the reports on today’s arguments has been stunning - it’s nearly unanimous that the administration’s lawyer did a horrible job, and that the focus of the day was how the government’s position amounted to no discernible lack of any limits on federal power under the Commerce Clause.

Oral arguments won’t necessarily decide the case, but if there were skeptical justices (Kennedy certainly, bot other conservative justices very deferential to the democratic process), oral arguments getting stuck on “no limits argument” without good explanation is not good - and make for a much easier opinion striking down the law. Now, on a hard question, the justices have easier cover to overturn - who wants to adopt the government’s position of “no limits”?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Those of us who feel the New Deal was a raw deal agree with the Courts decisions…[/quote]

You have to read the actual decisions - not all of them are the same. [/quote]

Fair enough. Since I don’t plan on doing that, I will take your word for it…

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

Looks like the Healthcare Law is in trouble…[/quote]

Reading the reports on today’s arguments has been stunning - it’s nearly unanimous that the administration’s lawyer did a horrible job, and that the focus of the day was how the government’s position amounted to no discernible lack of any limits on federal power under the Commerce Clause.

Oral arguments won’t necessarily decide the case, but if there were skeptical justices (Kennedy certainly, bot other conservative justices very deferential to the democratic process), oral arguments getting stuck on “no limits argument” without good explanation is not good - and make for a much easier opinion striking down the law. Now, on a hard question, the justices have easier cover to overturn - who wants to adopt the government’s position of “no limits”?[/quote]

Wow… Yeah I was just watch something about the justices arguing points. It’s interesting how quickly they break these things down to fundamentals. I don’t think the counter argument of the non-insured taxing the infrastructure anyway was compelling because of how it loosens the definition of commerce.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Looks like the Healthcare Law is in trouble…

Justices signal possible trouble for health insurance mandate

[/quote]

There is hope, yet.

Well if the bill gets ruled unconstitutional, which it looks like that will probably be the case after today, what happens to Romneycare in Mass?

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Well if the bill gets ruled unconstitutional, which it looks like that will probably be the case after today, what happens to Romneycare in Mass?[/quote]

Good question.

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Well if the bill gets ruled unconstitutional, which it looks like that will probably be the case after today, what happens to Romneycare in Mass?[/quote]

Zero effect, it’s irrelevant to Romneycare. The question at issue is the scope of the federal government to pass laws under the Commerce Clause. That has nothing to do with what laws can be passed at the state level, which would be measured against the state constitution (unless speaking generically somehow a federal issue was implicated, for example, civil rights).

“Changes the relationship of the federal government to the individual.”

If Kennedy flips we’ve beaten Obamacare!

"The Obama Administration’s top lawyer told the Supreme Court on Tuesday that the health reforms Mitt Romney signed into law in Massachusetts helped inspired the president’s controversial health care overhaul–that Romneycare shaped Obamacare.

With the law’s fate in the balance, Solicitor General Donald Verrilli told the nine justices that the individual mandate–the requirement that people have health insurance or pay a penalty–was constitutional and slapped down other options such as requiring that individuals buy insurance when they go to get health care.

“That will never work. Congress understood that. It chose the means that will work, the means that it saw worked in the states, and in the state of Massachusetts, and that it had every reason to think would work on a national basis,” Verrilli said as he wrapped up his arguments on the second of three days of Supreme Court hearings on the law."

http://news.yahoo.com/…-211115198.html

As a side note, to be afraid of a second term Obama makes no sense if this court lets the individual mandate through.

Even if he appointed only PhDs in social engineering from Engels University in Marxville, what more could they possibly do?

Well, they could literally light the constitution on fire but I would consider that to be progress.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
What happens to Barry if the law is struck down ?

Does it affect his 2012 reelection ?[/quote]

I wish, but I doubt it. I think it would actually be a boon for him. A huge propaganda tool. “Look they are taking your right to health care away. Vote for me to get it back.” Mix this with a weak republican pool, and super friendly media, and a little dash of “It’s still Bush’s fault” and a huge dash of, “I got Bin Laden”…

[/quote]

This is actually what brought me looking for this thread lol

I’ve seen some people saying how if it gets struck down it could guarantee his victory, which to me seems ridiculous. Obama’s key piece of legislation destroyed and it helps him win??

But when explained like you did, I can see it…shit…

LMAO. So I posted this question on fb, I was a little more wordy there, but basically, “If contracts are null and void if entered into under duress, how can the federal government force someone to buy health insurance? If your options are to either buy it or be fined, than you are entering into the contract under duress; being forced into it.”

Liberal I know posted this; “Your contract was written and signed for when a doctor delivered you and when you started paying taxes. If you can pay taxes you can pay into healthcare. Think about it before you elect to get into a debate.”

My reply, “I think you need to learn to follow your own advice. Explain to me how your contract was written and signed when you’re born. And how the issue of buying healthcare and paying for it out of my own pocket, or receiving a fine, which is the issue of the individual mandate, has anything to do with taxes.”

And finally, proving that he has no idea what he is talking about, he replied, “Take a moment, educate yourself on healthcare. You pay taxes, I pay taxes and the majority of unpaid bills are paid for by our taxes. You have already paid into the healthcare system when your parents paid taxes and had you. If you have a job, pay taxes you already own the social healthcare system.”

This is what we’re up against…it would be funny if people like him weren’t out the voting.

[quote]benos4752 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
What happens to Barry if the law is struck down ?

Does it affect his 2012 reelection ?[/quote]

I wish, but I doubt it. I think it would actually be a boon for him. A huge propaganda tool. “Look they are taking your right to health care away. Vote for me to get it back.” Mix this with a weak republican pool, and super friendly media, and a little dash of “It’s still Bush’s fault” and a huge dash of, “I got Bin Laden”…

[/quote]

This is actually what brought me looking for this thread lol

I’ve seen some people saying how if it gets struck down it could guarantee his victory, which to me seems ridiculous. Obama’s key piece of legislation destroyed and it helps him win??

But when explained like you did, I can see it…shit…[/quote]

I can see that too lol. But if the bill gets struck down, they would have to defend two years of a supermajority producing a stimulus that didn’t work as everyone hoped and an unconstitutional healthcare bill. That won’t be easy.

[quote]benos4752 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
What happens to Barry if the law is struck down ?

Does it affect his 2012 reelection ?[/quote]

I wish, but I doubt it. I think it would actually be a boon for him. A huge propaganda tool. “Look they are taking your right to health care away. Vote for me to get it back.” Mix this with a weak republican pool, and super friendly media, and a little dash of “It’s still Bush’s fault” and a huge dash of, “I got Bin Laden”…

[/quote]

This is actually what brought me looking for this thread lol

I’ve seen some people saying how if it gets struck down it could guarantee his victory, which to me seems ridiculous. Obama’s key piece of legislation destroyed and it helps him win??

But when explained like you did, I can see it…shit…[/quote]

67% of the populace is against this travesty called Obamacare. If it gets crushed at the SC level that will NOT help Obama win a second term. This is one more lie planted by the main stream liberal media in order to help their chosen one win a second term.

Take health care away from Obama and what exactly did he accomplish in his first term?

Other can killing a few terrorist leaders and alienating Israel.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

“That will never work. Congress understood that. It chose the means that will work, the means that it saw worked in the states, and in the state of Massachusetts, and that it had every reason to think would work on a national basis,” Verrilli said as he wrapped up his arguments on the second of three days of Supreme Court hearings on the law."[/quote]

I’d like to say that was shameless politicking by Verrilli, but I am afraid what really might be at issue is a lack of understanding of the difference between limitations on state powers and limitations on federal powers. No wonder he got whitesmoked. He should be fired. What happened in Massachusetts has no bearing on the constitutionality of the federal individual mandate.

From the audio I heard, it sounding like the federal government was completely unprepared. It sounded like they were trying to come up with answers to questions they should have had answers for 6 months ago.