I have posted a link to a petition being brought forward to protect the marine who recently shot a terrorist in the head. The story is all over the news. He was concerned that the terroist was booby-trapped . Marines had previously been killed by this ploy. This marine had been shot the day before and returned to duty. He exemplifies what a marine is. Tough, loyal, patriotic and caring for his brother in arms. He should not be prosecuted for doing his duty. Please click the link, read the petition and sign. SHOW THIS MARINE WE CARE.
I recieved this petition on e-mail, and already signed it.
Our warriors are in harm’s way every day, and do not need to be second-guessed about every life-changing decision that they make. Too bad some people are more concerned about an enemy that hides in ‘holy sites’ and uses deceit to kill us than about our honorable Marines forced to make impossible decisions.
Semper Fi!
Steel_rain,
[quote]steel_rain wrote:
I recieved this petition on e-mail, and already signed it.
Our warriors are in harm’s way every day, and do not need to be second-guessed about every life-changing decision that they make. Too bad some people are more concerned about an enemy that hides in ‘holy sites’ and uses deceit to kill us than about our honorable Marines forced to make impossible decisions.
Semper Fi![/quote]
“Some people” are concerned about how the war is being conducted - and that is exactly why decisions of soldiers should be checked when in doubt. If you truly trust in the US military’s ability to conduct a “fair” war, then you should not fear an enquiry, but rather welcome it as a chance to make sure everyone within the campaign acts accordingly. Just denying the right to doubt decisions and giving your soldiers a free pass is a dangerous idea in my view.
Makkun
The problem we have in this coountry is liberalism and the thought that these people need to be treated fairly. Have you been in battle? Ever been shot at? Have you seen your friend shot, legs blown off or killed in front of you? War is not fair, it is won by superior soldiers and firepower. The people we are facing would kill everyone of us, given the chance. Our soldiers need to be able to operate without the thought of prosecution by the same people who sent them there. We are still talking about abu ghrab and have prosecuted these soldiers, we are talking about the treatment of these terrorists in Guantanimo. But the media has seemed to fail to publicise other than a brief blip, the cutting off of heads, the burning and beating of 4 security forces and many other atrocities that are committed. But put underwear on some animals head and go to jail, be told how terrible we are. The mainstream media is a joke! They help to perpetrate the liberal pacifistic view that will get us all killed.
Let the military due their job, wipe these animals from the face of the earth. Then honor them for a job well done.
SEMPER FI!!!
Hahahahaha. Liberalism is not a problem, seriously.
Presumably the soldier believed it was a ploy and acted accordingly.
An enquiry is necessary to help win the hearts and minds of observers, both here and abroad. There is nothing sinister in this. At the same time, showing support for this soldier is great too.
I’m going to word this in a weird way, but the reason it is okay for us to be killing people over there is because we at least try to make sure we do so in the proper manner for the proper reasons. Enquiries are part of making sure this is so.
I’ll leave it to other threads to debate whether or not we should be in Iraq and so on. It has very little to do with the situation at hand.
Vroom,
hear, hear! I totally agree.
Makkun
Your funny! IT is hilarious that you are from Canada. I do not believe you have any soldiers in harms way. Do you? Why is it that we should be so concerned with how we are viewed? We are disliked, for many reasons, around the world, however every country looks to the U.S. when they need help. We usually come to their aid. We saved most of europe, twice. We have bailed out france from problems many times. Are you french canadian? We lost a great deal of lives on d-day. I do not think there were any french men to be found that day? You laugh and say liberalism is not a problem. I sit in the middle of some of my political views. I do not think the government should tell a woman that she cannot have an abortion, nor do I think it should be used as birth control in a modern world. I do not care if two gay people want to be married, more power to them, I hope they succeed. I do not want my government taking care of me, liberals do. I do not like social programs to finance people to stay home and collect welfare when they are perfectly healthy to work, liberals do. I do not beleive in using your childhood as an excuse for your adult actions, liberals do. I do not think people should be awarded for their idiocy, liberals do. I think criminals should be punished severely including the use death penalty, not given three strikes. Liberals want to let them out and keep killers alive. Government healthcare is hopeless, you should know that. I could go on but you should get my point by now. Oh yeah, we are probably over there because of oil too, but we are also one of the biggest consumers of it as well. We need to have some stability there and unfortunately this is how it has to be. I also think we should broach the nafta agreement, screw canada and mexico! What do you do for us.
Mejho,
[quote]mejho wrote:
Your funny! IT is hilarious that you are from Canada. I do not believe you have any soldiers in harms way. Do you? Why is it that we should be so concerned with how we are viewed? We are disliked, for many reasons, around the world, however every country looks to the U.S. when they need help. We usually come to their aid. We saved most of europe, twice. We have bailed out france from problems many times. Are you french canadian? We lost a great deal of lives on d-day. I do not think there were any french men to be found that day?[/quote]
Check your history books on that one…
If liberalism was really as dreadful as you see it, I could agree. But I think you are mistaken.
If the US acted as you prescribe, I guess no one should do anything for it.
But what does this have to do with the marine - not much. I think Vroom’s and my point was that an army should have proper procedures to deal with possible missconduct of its soldiers. This is what distinguishes a civilised nation’s army from a bunch of mercenaries.
Makkun
Makkun and Vroom,
I absolutely agree that a method of investigating allegations of misconduct needs to exist - not so much for the ‘hearts and minds’ (although that is important) but to maintain the military’s character and professionalism.
I just take issue with some people (mostly talking heads in the media) assuming immediately that a ‘war crime’ was committed, just because it was an American pulling the trigger. Never mind all of the real war crimes that are committed by the so-called ‘insuregents’. It is easy to sit in a comfortable location, far removed from the blood, stench, terror, and mind-numbing fear of not knowing if a bullet you never even saw will end your life in the next second and make judgements about a person making a split-second, life-and-death decision. I give an American the benefit of the doubt when fighting against a dishonorable, deceitful enemy with a track record of killing Marines with booby traps and false ‘white flags’.
On another point, fighting ‘fair’ is a good way to lose a lot of Marines (as we seem to be doing) while making little headway. I would like to see a use of overwhelming force. We have the weapons to avoid putting more Marines in the streets to get shot at - we just won’t use them due to political ramifications. I for one am tired of seeing warriors die because we are trying to ‘be nice’.
This is amazing. We sit here fairly safe and secure in our homes. Not living with the fear that you could be killed at any moment from sniper, car bomb, rocket attack, booby trap and so forth and pass judgment on a soldier making a split second decision, with knowledge of what previously happenned to other soldiers in similiar situations. Who the f**k are we? Put your behind over there and get shot at everyday, lose friends…see what you do. This political correctness and concern for how we are viewed is absolutely digusting. They attacked us on Sept. 11th. Killing thousands of civilians or shale we say non combatants. Now you want to say that we need to police how our soldiers fight a war. IT IS WAR! People die, hopefully more of them than us. Every war has had its atrocities, that is war and human behavior. No one cared because the reports were old when we heard them in previous wars excluding the hippy liberals who protested and spit on soldiers during vietnam conflict ( I will not digress). The modern media with it’s live action and reporting has exposed the world to what happens in war, it is not fun…face it. Think about it…The last person who wants to go to war is the soldier who has to fight it. Now you want him to think about liability of action, which could get him killed, while in combat. That is a joke! Why even send him into conflict. The politicing has got to stop.We need to show the world our overwhelming force and put this to an end. It sickens me every time I here another U.S. soldier has been injured or killed. But oh no…we might upset NATO or the members from germany, french or russia if we do that. Those countries were making millions with the iraqis and we cut there money train off…too bad. I would not lose an ounce of sleep if we killed every last one of the middle east terrorists, they would kill you in a heartbeat.
Mejho,
Just wanted to say I agree with you 100%. The fact that there is even a debate about this is sickening to me.
Wow, mejho , that’s quite the stance there. And I agree with others you should pick up some historical literature.
And actually there are Canadian soldiers in harms way, however the number is currently less than the American lives lost in Iraq. I too also hate to hear of more dead American soldiers, just another family destroyed. But I also hate to hear of how many million people die of Aids each year as well, I notice that we are so consumed with this Iraq situation that we forget about all else. What about the Darfur? Over 50,000 dead.
But anyways, back to the topic at hand, I read this article on Sunday that you guys might be interested in reading, so here it goes. Please excuse any typing errors.
The Camera Can’t Shoot the Terror
by Jim Hume (From the Times Colonist)
The cameras don’t tell the story. They just show grainy pictures of young men kicking open doors,and on one occasion, shooting the wounded.But they do not show me the fear of those young men, many of them still in their teens.They do not tell me of pounding hearts,gasping breath, of barely controlled terror.
For that I need to turn to the memoirs of an earlier young marine, a soldier who by his own account was a "gangling,long-boned youth, wholly lacking in what the Marine Corps called ‘command presence,’ but now leader of a squad of “19 highly insubordinate men” and facing a serious problem.
Just ahead of his hunkered down troop was a small hut suspected of harbouring enemy snipers. What to do?Retreat and report to a higher authority that their way was blocked?Order his men to charge? Or lead the way himself?
He chose to lead, called for covering fire and raced at Mach 2 speed in little bounds…zigzagging and dropping every dozen steps, remembering to roll as I dropped…utterly terrified, I jolted to a stop on the threshold of the shack…I could feel a twitching in my jaw, coming and going like a winky light signalling some disorder. Various valves opening and closing in my stomach,my mouth was dry, my legs quaking, and my eyes out of focus.
But he was a United States Marine on a seek and destroy mission, so he shook himself back to reality "unlocked the safety of my Colt, kicked the door open with my right foot and leapt inside.“My Horror returned. I was in an empty room.”
On the far side of the empty room was another door, another room, and the young soldier knew his crashing entrance bhad alerted whoever lay beyond. But, he wrote:“Flight was impossible now.So I smashed into the other room and saw him as a blur to my right. I wheeled that way, crouched,gripped the pistol butt in both hands and fired…Not only was he the first…soldier I had ever shot at, he was the only one I had seen at close quarters. He was a robin-fat, moon-faced, roly-poly little man…”
The young soldier said when he shot his enemy the man was entangled in his rifle harness sling:“his eyes rolling in panic. Realizing he could not extricate his arms and defend himself he was backing towards a corner with a curious crab like motion…My first shot had missed him, but the second caught him dead-on in the femoral artery. His left thigh blossomed, swiftly turning to mush. A wave of blood gushed from the wound, then another boiled ou sheeting across his legs, pooling on the earthen floor. Mutely he loooked down at it…”
Then after he slumped down and died…I kept firing at him…"Year later he could still recall the “sour pervasive emanation, different from anything you have known” coming from the freshly slain.
And then:"I began to tremble and next to shake all over. I sobbed, in a voice still grainy with fear:“I’m sorrry.Then I threw up…the half digested C-ration beans dribbling down my front, I smelled the vomit above the cordite. At the same time I noticed another odour; I had urinated in my skivvies…I had become a thing of tears and twitchings and dirtied pants. I remember wondering dumbly: Is that what they mean by conspicuous gallantry?”
The gangly, rawboned, young marine was to become renowned historian, and storytelller William Manchester, whose works remain high on the list of American classics. His, starkly recorded memories are from his epic Goodbye, Darknesss - A memoir of the Pacific War. It may take a serach of second hand bookstores to fina acopy but it should be a must read for anyone trying to understand the mindset of the young men now kicking in doors in Iraq- always remembering to that to understand is not necessarily to justify.
The recently aired film clips of the young American soldier who shot and killed a wounded Iraqi fighter, and the chilling “he’s dead now” brought instant condemnation and cries for vengeance in the name of justice.
I found myself wishing Manchester had been there to tell me what happened, for the cameraman provided only shadowy images of soldierss - but no hint of sphincter loosening fear of booby-traps or shots in the dark, now smell of blood and body waste, no copery taste of death.
I do not seek to justify the action of the young marine in Iraq; I just suggest Manchester’s Goodbye Darkness migh help in understanding what happens to men when , with the angel of death hovering, fear and trained hate mingle in darkening rooms.
And young marines find, too late, they can only sob - “I’m sorry.”
SCC,
good post. I can’t comment on the TV frenzy after the films showed up, as don’t watch TV. It was interesting to read the comment the cameraman who shot the pictures wrote in the Guardian, and how much he pointed out that he reported the incident to the superior officers as he just wanted due process - having been with the marines all the way, including being shot at (very much like the story you wrote for us). That was all. No left-wing liberal European surrender-monkey trying to tear the Marine’s honour apart. Just a guy doing his job - reporting what he saw.
As for the supreme force argument - yes, I guess that might have helped. Tell Donald Rumsfeld.
Mejho, JPBear,
As said before - if an army wants to be justified in its actions, it has to accept some scrutiny. I am worried if I read statements that go towards “fuck everyone, we’re at war”. And if you don’t get what’s wrong with that, you really should check on your history books.
Apparently he got 3 years in prison
http://www.turkishpress.com/world/news.asp?id=041211181058.07rhg6cf.xml
There’s just no way to win for these guys. Shoot early and you may live and go to jail; shoot late and you may die. I do believe he was wrong but these kids are scared for their lives and cannot be thinking clearly 100% of the time.
Just wanted to say that liberalism is on it’s way to being finished here in America.
It doesn’t work. It is being replaced with responsibility.
Hope I reassured those worried by liberalism.
Have a great one!!!
JeffR
[quote]Squeak wrote:
Apparently he got 3 years in prison
http://www.turkishpress.com/world/news.asp?id=041211181058.07rhg6cf.xml
There’s just no way to win for these guys. Shoot early and you may live and go to jail; shoot late and you may die. I do believe he was wrong but these kids are scared for their lives and cannot be thinking clearly 100% of the time.[/quote]
That’s a different incident.
I signed the petition. I hope this soldier gets let off; he deserves it. It is said that if you’re fighting a fair fight, you didn’t plan well enough. War is not supposed to be fair, at least not unless both parties involved are following the rules. The terrorists clearly DON’T.
Tadpole,
[quote]Tadpole wrote:
I signed the petition. I hope this soldier gets let off; he deserves it. It is said that if you’re fighting a fair fight, you didn’t plan well enough. War is not supposed to be fair, at least not unless both parties involved are following the rules. The terrorists clearly DON’T.[/quote]
That is what used to make us different from them - the ability to take responsibility for our actions and stand for the values we allegedly believe in (even if it is to our disadvantage). Giving that up moves us quite close to them.
Makkun
[quote]makkun wrote:
That is what used to make us different from them - the ability to take responsibility for our actions and stand for the values we allegedly believe in (even if it is to our disadvantage). Giving that up moves us quite close to them.
Makkun[/quote]
This is an isolated incident. To equate self-defense in a live or die situation with terroist tactics is just wrong.
We still play by the rules. They don’t have rules. We are not at all ‘quite closer to them’. To make this incident the example for our degrading values in Iraq is wrong as well.
Rainjack,
[quote]rainjack wrote:
makkun wrote:
That is what used to make us different from them - the ability to take responsibility for our actions and stand for the values we allegedly believe in (even if it is to our disadvantage). Giving that up moves us quite close to them.
Makkun
This is an isolated incident. To equate self-defense in a live or die situation with terroist tactics is just wrong.
We still play by the rules. They don’t have rules. We are not at all ‘quite closer to them’. To make this incident the example for our degrading values in Iraq is wrong as well.[/quote]
Didn’t do that. I believe - and strongly hope - that this was an isolated incident (leaving the Abu Ghuraib and Guantanomo Bay discussion rest for a minute). If you check my posts earlier in this thread, you will see that I criticised mainly the mentality here in this thread that the military should not be scrutinised thoroughly. The moment we run around with that mentality, “we” are not really different from “them” anymore.
Makkun