Lifty, I thought you were agreeing that the black market is a free market. I agree with you that it is what is wrong with prohibition. As usual Orion I do not understand your post. Do you not remember that you were trying to defend the point that a free market does exist. Please tell me where, it sure is not the black market
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
^I’m sure we’ll be completely underwhelmed by your response.[/quote]
You are underwhelming:)
The black market is a free market. It exists outside coercive authority and hence is free.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Lifty, I thought you were agreeing that the black market is a free market. I agree with you that it is what is wrong with prohibition. As usual Orion I do not understand your post. Do you not remember that you were trying to defend the point that a free market does exist. Please tell me where, it sure is not the black market[/quote]
You do not even have a market without some sort of rules.
Insofar those rules cannot be used to call a market “not free”. Your idea of a market is a contarduiction in terms.
Black markets are free insofar that nobody regulates transactions and picks winners and losers in an attempt of social engineering.
Government agents coming in and jailing people is not a problem of that market but is brought in from the outside and is dealt with by the market just like any other natural desaster.
And yes, I am inclined to see human stupidity and the will to force other people to live their lifes according to those stupidities as a force of nature.
An unfortunate one.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Lifty, I thought you were agreeing that the black market is a free market. I agree with you that it is what is wrong with prohibition. As usual Orion I do not understand your post. Do you not remember that you were trying to defend the point that a free market does exist. Please tell me where, it sure is not the black market[/quote]
You do not even have a market without some sort of rules.
Insofar those rules cannot be used to call a market “not free”. Your idea of a market is a contarduiction in terms.
Black markets are free insofar that nobody regulates transactions and picks winners and losers in an attempt of social engineering.
Government agents coming in and jailing people is not a problem of that market but is brought in from the outside and is dealt with by the market just like any other natural desaster.
And yes, I am inclined to see human stupidity and the will to force other people to live their lifes according to those stupidities as a force of nature.
An unfortunate one.
[/quote]
I think you see my point, there are no markets that have no rules or regulations, and the oneâ??s that have the less rules and regulations seem to be the oneâ??s that you are most likely to lose your life or money in the transaction, especially high dollar transactions.
Government agents coming in can ruin your day, take away any profit or chance to make profit, I would say if the black market were not illegal, that would have to be a true free market…
Maybe on small scales, like flee markets, farmers markets, they may be the freest, but still not totally free.
But when you have laws, taxable income, codes, even the use of credit cards all make the market less free.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
How often has a weed dealer “stolen” from you?
[/quote]
And this is a good point against prohibition. It does happen because some dealers know there is nothing their “customers” can do about it except find a new dealer.
Prohibition forces people to take the “law” into their own hands when they are wronged.[/quote]
Are you saying drugs should not be a free market?
I live in a mid sized city ,that used to be a nice and prosperous place. We had the machine tool industry,auto plants,meat packing,breweries,oil refineries,paper mills,clothing & appliance maufacturers ,large trucking industry, etc.reasonably priced housing,safe community.traditional conservative voters. Ever since those wonderful reagan years the city has been eroding away.The good paying jobs,union and non-union are gone.the city is going the way of Detroit.our homeless population started ,when they shut down the gov’t run mental facilities.in the early 80’s.school’s started going down ,no maintenance.The crime rate grew out of proportion,the jails are so overcrowded they dont even put people in jail who have warrant’s unless they are real bad felonies.this town used to be a nice place to live and raise a family.but it’s downfall started during those wonderful reagan yrs.to where its pretty much a shithole.
I know of several other cities in my region that are the same.Yea i know some of the brainiacs ,say move.I have lived in SoCal after ronnie was gov’nr, and the Big D. also.They were also going backward at the time.I know Jimmy was’nt to great but Ronnie put the finish on my area.Your public servant’s,cops ,fire ,teacher’s etc. are even feeling the pinch nowday’s because the good taxpaying job’s and neighborhood’s dont exist anymore.What book can you read about this chapter.It seem’s our rights ,started dwindling during this time period also,i know the cops write more ticket’s now in my area than they use to.being the tax base is’nt there, they started ticketing more to make up for lost tax dollars.We win again.
I know a couple of city cops that say the first two weeks of the month they dont give to many tickets but the last half of the month,they get writers cramp.In one area close to me they even started giving tickets if a parent and child are arguing or husband and wife ,boy friend girlfriend etc.and it is a big township that has always been republican.they even have a guy ,i forget his job title ,that goes around and if he sees something on your property be it visible from road or not will look in your garage windows under tarped down items etc. to give fines.He came back on one fellows property thats had a garage business for over 30yrs.in the same building ,that garage is to close to house and couldnt be there,guy had to go to court etc. he won,but why should you have to deal with that B.S. in the first place.
[quote]ron33 wrote:
I live in a mid sized city ,that used to be a nice and prosperous place. We had the machine tool industry,auto plants,meat packing,breweries,oil refineries,paper mills,clothing & appliance maufacturers ,large trucking industry, etc.reasonably priced housing,safe community.traditional conservative voters. Ever since those wonderful reagan years the city has been eroding away.The good paying jobs,union and non-union are gone.the city is going the way of Detroit.our homeless population started ,when they shut down the gov’t run mental facilities.in the early 80’s.school’s started going down ,no maintenance.The crime rate grew out of proportion,the jails are so overcrowded they dont even put people in jail who have warrant’s unless they are real bad felonies.this town used to be a nice place to live and raise a family.but it’s downfall started during those wonderful reagan yrs.to where its pretty much a shithole.
I know of several other cities in my region that are the same.Yea i know some of the brainiacs ,say move.I have lived in SoCal after ronnie was gov’nr, and the Big D. also.They were also going backward at the time.I know Jimmy was’nt to great but Ronnie put the finish on my area.Your public servant’s,cops ,fire ,teacher’s etc. are even feeling the pinch nowday’s because the good taxpaying job’s and neighborhood’s dont exist anymore.What book can you read about this chapter.It seem’s our rights ,started dwindling during this time period also,i know the cops write more ticket’s now in my area than they use to.being the tax base is’nt there, they started ticketing more to make up for lost tax dollars.We win again.
I know a couple of city cops that say the first two weeks of the month they dont give to many tickets but the last half of the month,they get writers cramp.In one area close to me they even started giving tickets if a parent and child are arguing or husband and wife ,boy friend girlfriend etc.and it is a big township that has always been republican.they even have a guy ,i forget his job title ,that goes around and if he sees something on your property be it visible from road or not will look in your garage windows under tarped down items etc. to give fines.He came back on one fellows property thats had a garage business for over 30yrs.in the same building ,that garage is to close to house and couldnt be there,guy had to go to court etc. he won,but why should you have to deal with that B.S. in the first place.[/quote]
A long post with absolutely zero information. My town started to crumble when Ray-gun was president. It must be his fault.
Ladies and Gentlemen. A look inside the mind of the average voter. This is precisely why we were not intended to be a democracy.
Interesting views on free markets and possible examples, the best example apparently being the black market. Don’t have time for a long developed post, so this won’t be my best work
If you are using the black market as an example of of a “free” market and how it works without the interference of government “picking” winners and losers, well it is just plain silly. Lifty, dhickey, Orion; you are smarter than this nonsense. The black market (with exceptions) is a parasite that could not live without the regulated markets that it sucks off of.
One of the prime examples is media piracy. These pirates take the work of others, the intellectual property, the production, the advertising, etc and they simply copy it for virtually free and resale it for their own personal gain, without contributing anything.
Another example relevant to this site is drugs. How many people on this site have bought gear from the black market and ended up shooting plain vegetable oil and God knows what else in there bodies. Non-regulation is not always a good thing. The question of which drugs should be made legal or non legal is a topic for another time.
Every sporting event that has any monetary component involved has a “referee” involved. He is there to regulate the activities of the participants and do his best to minimize the cheating, and to create a level playing field. I say minimize because it is impossible to completely eradicate it. Do you think every “hold” is caught in football?
Human beings, particularly those that go into the sales and marketing, are very competitive by nature. They will always seek an edge and they will always skirt the line between ethical and non ethical. And, if not warned or reprimanded, they will step fully across and stay there.
The next problem, and I think the ultimate problem, then becomes who regulates the regulators? If left alone and left in place too long they begin to set up their own little empires. If not addressed from the beginning, it quickly escalates to the point where a large segment of the population is where they are now, ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Congress, for the most part, are our referees, and they have been allowed to become crooked through the lack of foresight that did not impose term limits from the beginning. Congress shold be an opportunity for those that have “played the game” to step up and contribute to the betterment of the system (for a limited time). Having played the game, they are aware of the cracks in the system and are therefore better qualified to fix them. When finished, they can go back into the game having hopefully made it better.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Interesting views on free markets and possible examples, the best example apparently being the black market. Don’t have time for a long developed post, so this won’t be my best work
If you are using the black market as an example of of a “free” market and how it works without the interference of government “picking” winners and losers, well it is just plain silly. Lifty, dhickey, Orion; you are smarter than this nonsense. The black market (with exceptions) is a parasite that could not live without the regulated markets that it sucks off of.
One of the prime examples is media piracy. These pirates take the work of others, the intellectual property, the production, the advertising, etc and they simply copy it for virtually free and resale it for their own personal gain, without contributing anything.
Another example relevant to this site is drugs. How many people on this site have bought gear from the black market and ended up shooting plain vegetable oil and God knows what else in there bodies. Non-regulation is not always a good thing. The question of which drugs should be made legal or non legal is a topic for another time.
Every sporting event that has any monetary component involved has a “referee” involved. He is there to regulate the activities of the participants and do his best to minimize the cheating, and to create a level playing field. I say minimize because it is impossible to completely eradicate it. Do you think every “hold” is caught in football?
Human beings, particularly those that go into the sales and marketing, are very competitive by nature. They will always seek an edge and they will always skirt the line between ethical and non ethical. And, if not warned or reprimanded, they will step fully across and stay there.
The next problem, and I think the ultimate problem, then becomes who regulates the regulators? If left alone and left in place too long they begin to set up their own little empires. If not addressed from the beginning, it quickly escalates to the point where a large segment of the population is where they are now, ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Congress, for the most part, are our referees, and they have been allowed to become crooked through the lack of foresight that did not impose term limits from the beginning. Congress shold be an opportunity for those that have “played the game” to step up and contribute to the betterment of the system (for a limited time). Having played the game, they are aware of the cracks in the system and are therefore better qualified to fix them. When finished, they can go back into the game having hopefully made it better.
[/quote]
Excellent post Jeaton, I believe most people are too worried about Jon and Kate, Conan and Jay, Football and let’s not forget Tiger to care about politics
It always amazes me that people think growth, of and by itself, is a good thing. People spout the wonders of a totally free market, unregulated and free to grow to to its unencumbered limits. They ignore the fact that even nature regulates and governs for the betterment of all.
There is a name for non regulation in biology. It is called Cancer.
Rather than chase after unrealistic and unattainable ideas, why not work to better the systems that have shown an ability to work even in their imperfect manifestations. When good, smart people devote their energies to such unobtainable extremes, their intelligence and resources are removed from the “good fight” and those with moocher mentalities are allowed to continue making things worse.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Interesting views on free markets and possible examples, the best example apparently being the black market. Don’t have time for a long developed post, so this won’t be my best work
If you are using the black market as an example of of a “free” market and how it works without the interference of government “picking” winners and losers, well it is just plain silly. Lifty, dhickey, Orion; you are smarter than this nonsense. The black market (with exceptions) is a parasite that could not live without the regulated markets that it sucks off of.
[/quote]
First off I never mentioned the black market and never pointed to the black market as an example of a free market. It may in fact be, but I have never said this.
A black market is a response to markets not being free. I felt no need to read the rest of your post. You need to spend some time thinking about this.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
There is a name for non regulation in biology. It is called Cancer.
. [/quote]
this is the perfect analogy for regulation, not non regulation.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
There is a name for non regulation in biology. It is called Cancer.
. [/quote]
this is the perfect analogy for regulation, not non regulation. [/quote]
No, it is not. Repeating something over and over again does not make it so. My post speaks for itself. I am all for as little gov interference as possible, but not no regulation. Therefore, it is more important to control the mechanisms by which those who regulate are given their power and how long they can keep it.
And yes, I mistakenly thought you were putting the black market forth as an example.
My mistake. It was Orion and Lifty.
And had you spent the time to read the rest, perhaps it would be more clear in context.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
[quote]dhickey wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
There is a name for non regulation in biology. It is called Cancer.
. [/quote]
this is the perfect analogy for regulation, not non regulation. [/quote]
No, it is not. Repeating something over and over again does not make it so. My post speaks for itself. I am all for as little gov interference as possible, but not no regulation. Therefore, it is more important to control the mechanisms by which those who regulate are given their power and how long they can keep it.[/quote]
We don’t have to worry about no regulation. We just need to worry about less regulation. As soon as less regulation starts to hurt the economy, you just let me know.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
[quote]dhickey wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
There is a name for non regulation in biology. It is called Cancer.
. [/quote]
this is the perfect analogy for regulation, not non regulation. [/quote]
No, it is not. Repeating something over and over again does not make it so. My post speaks for itself. I am all for as little gov interference as possible, but not no regulation. Therefore, it is more important to control the mechanisms by which those who regulate are given their power and how long they can keep it.[/quote]
We don’t have to worry about no regulation. We just need to worry about less regulation. As soon as less regulation starts to hurt the economy, you just let me know.[/quote]
I sometimes feel as though we are are the same team in a game of doubles tennis. We have the same ends in mind, but you can’t resist pounding one into the back of my head every now and then. (Maybe I do the same)
I hold you, Lifty, Orion in high regard for your willingness to think. I do not always agree with your thoughts, but I enjoy seeing how you arrive at them.
As I have often written, I am a big fan of Ayn Rand, not for the applicability of her philosophy in its pure form in real life, but for her ability to conceptualize the philosophy in an idealized if unobtainable form. This is how I feel when people start to preach the wonders of free markets or “laissez faire” capitalism. If mankind were a perfectly rational and ethical species, then yes, it could work. But they aren’t and it wont. This being the case, why spend all the time and energy to pursue an unattainable end? Go to the old 80/20 rule. Spend eighty percent of the time on the solution and twenty percent on identifying the problem.
The problem is people living together in society require some level of regulation of their behavior in their interactions. The solution involves putting the minimum regulation necessary in place that still gets the job done, without becoming a ends to itself. How do you put persons with first hand knowledge of the problems and a desire to contribute into the position to regulate? Once there, how do you keep them from becoming drunk on the power and not wanting to leave.
Obviously, I think we have a very good structure in place, but with one major flaw. We neglected to put term limits in place for our legislative body. Power corrupts with overexposure. We did not regulate the regulators, and they therefore became a cancer, feeding themselves at the expense of those they were to help. This monstrous flaw seems so clear and evident to me that I am constantly surprised that at the lack of attention it gets. Fix this, and a great deal of the rest falls into place.