Ron Paul's Chances in 2012?

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This is absolutely the most hysterical stuff I have ever read about Ron Paul.

He is a political opportunist. Hahahahahaha! He’s the least politically ambitious person in Congress, you nitwit.

I agree some of his “old guard supporters” are shady, especially since they do not even know what the “old guard” ideal is.[/quote]

Running for President is the MOST ambitious!!!

He is lining his pockets with contributions. Find out how much he took in and how much he spent.

He votes for pork in committee and against it for show. He is phony.

[/quote]
Examples?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]
??? See orion’s post.

Has Ron Paul even said that he’ll be running again?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This is absolutely the most hysterical stuff I have ever read about Ron Paul.

He is a political opportunist. Hahahahahaha! He’s the least politically ambitious person in Congress, you nitwit.

I agree some of his “old guard supporters” are shady, especially since they do not even know what the “old guard” ideal is.[/quote]

Running for President is the MOST ambitious!!!

He is lining his pockets with contributions. Find out how much he took in and how much he spent.

He votes for pork in committee and against it for show. He is phony.

[/quote]
Examples?[/quote]

Dude who needs real life examples. He posted it on the interwebz so you know its legit.

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]

Errr, what? What country do you live in?

[/quote]

Name three industry’s that the government is, and has been, “in bed” with. And back it up with facts.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]

Errr, what? What country do you live in?

[/quote]

Name three industry’s that the government is, and has been, “in bed” with. And back it up with facts.
[/quote]

Orion just named off a handful. What more facts do you need other than reality?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]

Errr, what? What country do you live in?

[/quote]

Name three industry’s that the government is, and has been, “in bed” with. And back it up with facts.
[/quote]

Pharma, agriculture, oil.

G.O.D.

Guns, Oil, Drugs

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]

Errr, what? What country do you live in?

[/quote]

Name three industry’s that the government is, and has been, “in bed” with. And back it up with facts.
[/quote]

Orion just named off a handful. What more facts do you need other than reality?[/quote]

Anyone can throw out names. Now back it up with some evidence. I have an honest disagreement as to the allegation that government is in bed with business. And I have not seen anything to contradict my feelings on this. If you have something to share I would love to see what drives your opinion. But I highly doubt that I can be convinced.

I think this is an accusation that lives on in the minds who trust neither government or business. Hence, they must be in bed together. But the closer you get to one or the other, or both the more you see that is just not the case.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:
Paul is obviously the only politician worth actually voting for, per the comments from Lifticus.

Unfortunately, he has no chance for the simple fact that he “names names”. He knows the system is rigged. Big Business and the government are in bed together and Paul points this out. He will therefore not get the financial support from these interests, unlike Obama, Bush, etc, who all play the game.

We’re fucked.[/quote]

Dude I thought you were into hip-hop. You follow politics and shit too?
[/quote]

Dustin is wrong about big business and government being in bed together they are and have been natural enemies, only uniting in rare instances.
[/quote]

Errr, what? What country do you live in?

[/quote]

Name three industry’s that the government is, and has been, “in bed” with. And back it up with facts.
[/quote]

Pharma, agriculture, oil.

[/quote]

Now all you have to do is post some solid evidence to back it up. And honestly if you are correct I would love to see it. But I have been involved in both business and government and they are usually at odds. As I said to Dustin please post what you have, convince me man.

I normally avoid responding to Zeb, but this is just retarded… I can’t help myself.

Agriculture - subsidized to maintain stable production, protected from foreign competition via tariffs, largely owned by a few conglomerates. Here’s a piece I found in about 10 seconds on the influence of big-agra:
http://www.helium.com/items/1385745-big-ag-and-the-usda-how-they-built-the-national-animal-identification-system

Pharmaceutical industry - propped up at the research level by public institutions of higher learning, propped up at the market level by contractual pricing structures with major government entities like medicare. They are also given a pass on many degrees of import taxation, even though much of their development and production is overseas.

Oil - This industry did not exist before it was subsidized with major tax incentives… the cost of development was simply too high for anyone to take the risk. Much of early oil exploration was actually initiated under favorable land-use agreements related to a mining boom in the western US that the federal government expected to spur the economy… it did, but it also forever set the precedent that mining and oil exploration would take place with states and municipalities being strong-armed by the federal government to wave property rights to the parts of the common wealth for a fraction of their worth.

Another industry to consider is telecommunications. The entire telecom infrastructure of this nation was built with direct subsidization. This only changed with the development of cellular technologies and networks… although, realistically cellular networks cannot exist without the robust backbone that was originally built for the “bells.” Even when the market was “deregulated” in the mid 80’s, the government subsidized development of technologies and retrofitting of networks via tax incentives.

Don’t even get me started on the defense industry…

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
I normally avoid responding to Zeb, but this is just retarded… I can’t help myself.

Agriculture - subsidized to maintain stable production, protected from foreign competition via tariffs, largely owned by a few conglomerates. Here’s a piece I found in about 10 seconds on the influence of big-agra:
http://www.helium.com/items/1385745-big-ag-and-the-usda-how-they-built-the-national-animal-identification-system

Pharmaceutical industry - propped up at the research level by public institutions of higher learning, propped up at the market level by contractual pricing structures with major government entities like medicare. They are also given a pass on many degrees of import taxation, even though much of their development and production is overseas.

Oil - This industry did not exist before it was subsidized with major tax incentives… the cost of development was simply too high for anyone to take the risk. Much of early oil exploration was actually initiated under favorable land-use agreements related to a mining boom in the western US that the federal government expected to spur the economy… it did, but it also forever set the precedent that mining and oil exploration would take place with states and municipalities being strong-armed by the federal government to wave property rights to the parts of the common wealth for a fraction of their worth.

Another industry to consider is telecommunications. The entire telecom infrastructure of this nation was built with direct subsidization. This only changed with the development of cellular technologies and networks… although, realistically cellular networks cannot exist without the robust backbone that was originally built for the “bells.” Even when the market was “deregulated” in the mid 80’s, the government subsidized development of technologies and retrofitting of networks via tax incentives.

Don’t even get me started on the defense industry…[/quote]

Thanks for your post Swole, glad you took the time to respond all very good points. I think I’ll have some time on Thursday to respond in detail.

[quote]AdamDrew wrote:
Ron Paul raised $5 million in 2008. Obama raised $750 million. [/quote]

You may have a point, but these numbers are woefully incorrect. First off, Paul raised $5,000,000 in one day. He raised $34,336,169 for his entire primary run. BO raised Approx 256M before his nomination in June 2008. Another factor was the two horse race for the DEM nomination, and the 6 horse race over for the GOP. Rudy, Huck, Mitt, Mcain, Thompson and Paul.

So if you consider the fundraising of the two to be two eaqually sized Pies, and one pie is cut nearly in half, and the other needs to be divided up into 6 peices of varying sizes, Paul did remarkably well in his fundraising. And actually he didn’t even do it. The people did it of thier own free will. He wasn’t doing $5,000 per plate dinners and all this other BS. He had a link on a website and you donated that way.

Just wanted to correct that, I know Obama dwarfed his fundraising, but not by the margin you depicted.

V

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
I normally avoid responding to Zeb, but this is just retarded… I can’t help myself.

Agriculture - subsidized to maintain stable production, protected from foreign competition via tariffs, largely owned by a few conglomerates. Here’s a piece I found in about 10 seconds on the influence of big-agra:
http://www.helium.com/items/1385745-big-ag-and-the-usda-how-they-built-the-national-animal-identification-system

Pharmaceutical industry - propped up at the research level by public institutions of higher learning, propped up at the market level by contractual pricing structures with major government entities like medicare. They are also given a pass on many degrees of import taxation, even though much of their development and production is overseas.

Oil - This industry did not exist before it was subsidized with major tax incentives… the cost of development was simply too high for anyone to take the risk. Much of early oil exploration was actually initiated under favorable land-use agreements related to a mining boom in the western US that the federal government expected to spur the economy… it did, but it also forever set the precedent that mining and oil exploration would take place with states and municipalities being strong-armed by the federal government to wave property rights to the parts of the common wealth for a fraction of their worth.

Another industry to consider is telecommunications. The entire telecom infrastructure of this nation was built with direct subsidization. This only changed with the development of cellular technologies and networks… although, realistically cellular networks cannot exist without the robust backbone that was originally built for the “bells.” Even when the market was “deregulated” in the mid 80’s, the government subsidized development of technologies and retrofitting of networks via tax incentives.

Don’t even get me started on the defense industry…[/quote]

Are you suggesting that the government should not have a close relationship with the defense industry? I’m thankful for that one.

Agriculture: Government currently subsidizes US farmers to the tune of 20 billion per year, no small amount. But they sell well over 200 billion in products each year around the world. And that makes the US farmer the most productive in the history of the world. Does the fact that government subsidizes them 10% of this number mean that they’re “in bed” with them? And would yuo change it if you could?

Pharmaceutical: Americans spend about 200 billion per year on prescription drugs. This has risen dramatically and is obviously the number one reason that the pharmaceutical industry is doing so well. And recently the pharmaceutical industry has become the biggest defrauder of the federal government under the false claims act. The government has responded with fines and other penalties. If this is being in bed with the government someone might want to tell the pharmaceutical companies and the US government to stop fighting for the covers.

Oil: The US is fining BP into the billions for their recent fiasco. If they are somehow in bed with them this is one more rocky relationship. There have been other such stiff fines and penalties for far less infractions than this.

I think what you may view as the government “being in bed” with certain companies is nothing more than a relationship that has to exist at a somewhat symbiotic level. That doesn’t mean that either respect the other, nor does it mean that government given the opportunity would not steal, take or intimidate millions, or billions from said companies.

Also the four industry’s which you’ve chosen comprise only a small part of the entire business world. The original accusation is that “government is in bed with business”. Maybe you better give me your definition of what being in bed means. Or perhaps tighten it up to mean that certain industries get more favorable treatment than other industries.

For example, I don’t see the US government handing Walmart any money. In fact, local and state governments have tried to make it quite difficult for them to do business in certain parts of the country. There are many industries who have had to deal with restrictive government red tape and other government hurdles just to stay in business. Far from being in bed with government many such businesses feel that government is trying to crush them.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Are you suggesting that the government should not have a close relationship with the defense industry? I’m thankful for that one.[/quote]

No. I’m just answering your question.

Yes. I define the overall picture as “being in bed.” You have not addressed the issues of tariff protection and lobbying dollars. Nonetheless, when I had a business, if I had a client who was providing 10% of my revenues (and at times I did… a terrible mistake), then they were my most important client.

The only things that I would change about our current relationship with big-agra are the effects of lobbying dollars and the near monopolization of the market by a few big players. We… the government… protect/allow this.

You will have to quantify the value of the fines against the value of the subsidization of you want to make this claim. So, if we subsidize them in the realm of $100, and then fine them for some infraction at $2… clearly, the fine is symbolic and has less effect on the relationship than the subsidies.

See my last point.

Also, BP is one company, and they are not domestic.

That is exactly how I define “being in bed.”

And, you have a massive burden of proof if you wish to ascribe motivations to a bureaucracy.

The original statement was actually that government is in bed with “big business,” not just “business.” There is a very important difference.

We could spend the next month dissecting examples.

[quote] For example, I don’t see the US government handing Walmart any money. In fact, local and state governments have tried to make it quite difficult for them to do business in certain parts of the country. There are many industries who have had to deal with restrictive government red tape and other government hurdles just to stay in business. Far from being in bed with government many such businesses feel that government is trying to crush them.
[/quote]

Funny that you should mention Walmart… as the largest player in the trade deficit between the US and China, we do often in fact hand them money. It’s called inflation.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Now all you have to do is post some solid evidence to back it up. And honestly if you are correct I would love to see it. But I have been involved in both business and government and they are usually at odds. As I said to Dustin please post what you have, convince me man.
[/quote]

This is silly to have to provide any evidence considering the aforementioned entities have been stroking each other off for the last 100 hundred years or so.

Swole has done well in providing evidence, but I’ll also add this link, which took about five seconds to find in a google search.

You’ll notice number two on the list is Goldman Sachs. Do you think it is any coincidence that Obama, in turn, bailed out the major financial institutions once he was elected?

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Now all you have to do is post some solid evidence to back it up. And honestly if you are correct I would love to see it. But I have been involved in both business and government and they are usually at odds. As I said to Dustin please post what you have, convince me man.
[/quote]

This is silly to have to provide any evidence considering the aforementioned entities have been stroking each other off for the last 100 hundred years or so.

Swole has done well in providing evidence, but I’ll also add this link, which took about five seconds to find in a google search.

You’ll notice number two on the list is Goldman Sachs. Do you think it is any coincidence that Obama, in turn, bailed out the major financial institutions once he was elected?[/quote]

Because certain businesses get “stroked” (I guess we went from being in bed to forplay) doesn’t mean that ALL business is in this position.

You and Swole have a difficult time proving that statement. There is a great deal of businesses in the US. You’ve hit a a tiny percentage and even those are questionable.

I think what the two of you meant to say is that some businesses have a somewhat friendly relationship with the US government based upon the needs of each.

Now that I’d agree with.

I think the initial statement was very specific in its scope - Big Business

We could spend some more time defining what that means if you wish.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Because certain businesses get “stroked” (I guess we went from being in bed to forplay) doesn’t mean that ALL business is in this position.
[/quote]

Well, as Swole and I have said, Big Business is the key term.

Not really.

I mean, what evidence would you like? You’re essentially arguing semantics. Of course not all business is beholden to government, and visuh-versuh. Last I checked, my business isn’t getting any bailouts, but that’s why I used the term Big Business.

And just because I’m such a nice guy, I provided some reading material for yas.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=history+of+big+business+government

You are a nice guy Dustin thanks for google search on big business. But I’ll stick with my previous statement with only a slight modification:

"I think what the two of you meant to say is that some big businesses have a somewhat friendly relationship with the US government based upon the needs of each.

If we were to break down the various big business sectors you would find that some get tiny amounts of money from government, some up to 20%, but most get nothing. You wanna research it? Go ahead, let me know what you come up with. I am only speaking from my personal experience and what I’ve read in various business books, magazines and of course my favorite publication the Wall Street Journal. Could I be wrong? Sure I could. But rather I tend to think that those who are far, far removed from “big business” tend to think that “why those cheats are all in it together”. Some think that Oswald didn’t pull the trigger on JFK. Others that Elvis is still alive. And some think that we never landed on the moon. While the big business and government conspiracy is less far fetched it’s still a conspiracy theory. And like any conspiracy theory, the onus is on you to prove it so I’ll let you do that if you think it’s worth it.

There you go Swole and Dustin.

By the way both of you have a happy and safe new year if I don’t speak to you before Friday.

Zeb