[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BTW, the CIA functions as a secret military of the US President. In fact they answer and are accountable to no one, not even congress.
They are the definition of evil and would sabotage an asset if it means acquiring an other “more worthy” asset.
[/quote]
Are you an American or not? Show some respect. What you are saying is disgraceful.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
So you agree the US wasn’t “meddling” in Iranian affairs like Ron Paul said? It was “blowback” by a group of students from something that happened more than a quarter of a century before? Before they were born.[/quote]
No I do not agree - the US overthrew Mosaddegh. I would definitely call that “meddling” in Iranian affairs.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
This is what the leader of the Iranian revolution(Khomeini) said, during the revolution, about Mosaddegh:
“He(Mosaddegh) was not a Muslim…and I said ‘He will be slapped’…and it did not take long before he was slapped(in the '53 coup)…and if he had lasted he would have slapped Islam.”
and
“Demonstrating for anybody’s bones(meaning Mosaddegh) and opposing Islam are not to be tolerated”
So, how did Mosaddegh’s ousting cause the embassy outrage more than a quarter of a century later by people who hated Mosaddegh? Go on.[/quote]
And why are you even quoting Khomeini? I didn’t say that the Mosaddegh ousting directly caused it. That was an indisputable case of meddling in Iranian affairs. When you do that, it pisses people off, and it leads to blowback.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ron Paul supporters question time. 
Ron Paul says that the Iranian hostage crisis occurred because the US was “meddling” in Iranian affairs.
Note: Col “Chargin’ Charlie” Beckwith on the Iranian hostage crisis:
"I said to him(CIA liason officer)…‘What we gotta do is get in touch with the stay-behind assets in country and task them with our intelligence requirements.’…He led me to a quiet corner and whispered the astonishing news, ‘We don’t have any.’
Question the first - How was the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs without any intelligence assets in Iran?[/quote]
Ummm…the CIA never lies. Never, I say.[/quote]
Either you don’t know the context or you’re even stupider than I previously gave you credit for. The CIA officer was the liason between Delta Force(the people tasked with rescuing the hostages) and the CIA. Why would the CIA lie to the hostage rescuers? Why would the CIA want the hostage rescue team to fail and the hostages to remain in Iran? Is the CIA in league with the Ayatollahs? What’s the motive? Where’s the evidence? Is there no end to this bullshit?[/quote]
Why would the CIA want to overthrow Mosaddegh?
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
And why are you even quoting Khomeini? I didn’t say that the Mosaddegh ousting directly caused it. That was an indisputable case of meddling in Iranian affairs. When you do that, it pisses people off, and it leads to blowback.[/quote]
That’s not what “blowback” is. Blowback refers to unintended consequences stemming from an action. The action - '53 coup. The unintended consequences of that action - embassy attack. That’s what you were saying and it’s nonsense.
Related to thread, of course ; )
What is inherently wrong with “simple answers” or “simple conclusions”?
Oh, that’s right, nothing.
[quote]DeterminedNate wrote:
What is inherently wrong with “simple answers” or “simple conclusions”?
Oh, that’s right, nothing.[/quote]
Everything.
How could you possibly build an empire and treat your own people like livestock with ideas like “Hey, maybe if we consistently spend more than we take it we kind of run into problems” or “Gee, you think that if we bomb them they will kind of hate us?”.
In both cases above you can get a PHD in demonstrating that not only is the above not true, but that in fact quite the opposite is the case and we simply need more, more, more of both.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BTW, the CIA functions as a secret military of the US President. In fact they answer and are accountable to no one, not even congress.
They are the definition of evil and would sabotage an asset if it means acquiring an other “more worthy” asset.
[/quote]
Are you an American or not? Show some respect. What you are saying is disgraceful.[/quote]
What’s disgraceful is how the CIA goes into countries and forces other intelligence agencies (DoD Intelligence Agency, for example) to give up its assets. What’s disgraceful is how CIA intentionally abandons its own assets on a whim. What’s disgraceful is how the CIA will knowingly set up its own assets to gain information and not even protect them from harm.
Ask any active US defense intelligence operative their opinion of the CIA and you will get the same response. The CIA is not a very well respected agency by other intel agencies.
[quote]florelius wrote:
Yhea that is sad, because he seems like a guy who has hes heart in the right place and therefor it is sad he aint able to explain himself properly. But I dont think it hurts him that bad because what sets him apart and whats makes him a likeable figure is hes agitation against militarism and that is also what makes him a person who should be in the spotlight( not president perhaps, but he deserves to be on tv etc ). He`s economical wiew form my leftist and europeen perspective doesnt seem that different from what other american conservatives say, so its not what sets him apart or attract people.
Again just my opinion about ron paul.[/quote]
Yup. Ron Paul is inconsistent when it comes to explaining his positions well. sometimes he does well other times not. He can be a pretty poor speaker. If you want to see an “austrian economist”/historian who is not only extremely well read in economics and history but is also an excellent speaker I would recommend Thomas E. Woods.
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ron Paul supporters question time.
Ron Paul says that the Iranian hostage crisis occurred because the US was “meddling” in Iranian affairs.
Note: Col “Chargin’ Charlie” Beckwith on the Iranian hostage crisis:
"I said to him(CIA liason officer)…‘What we gotta do is get in touch with the stay-behind assets in country and task them with our intelligence requirements.’…He led me to a quiet corner and whispered the astonishing news, ‘We don’t have any.’
Question the first - How was the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs without any intelligence assets in Iran?[/quote]
Ummm…the CIA never lies. Never, I say.[/quote]
Either you don’t know the context or you’re even stupider than I previously gave you credit for. The CIA officer was the liason between Delta Force(the people tasked with rescuing the hostages) and the CIA. Why would the CIA lie to the hostage rescuers? Why would the CIA want the hostage rescue team to fail and the hostages to remain in Iran? Is the CIA in league with the Ayatollahs? What’s the motive? Where’s the evidence? Is there no end to this bullshit?[/quote]
Why would the CIA want to overthrow Mosaddegh? [/quote]
No seriously though, could you answer this?
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ron Paul supporters question time.
Ron Paul says that the Iranian hostage crisis occurred because the US was “meddling” in Iranian affairs.
Note: Col “Chargin’ Charlie” Beckwith on the Iranian hostage crisis:
"I said to him(CIA liason officer)…‘What we gotta do is get in touch with the stay-behind assets in country and task them with our intelligence requirements.’…He led me to a quiet corner and whispered the astonishing news, ‘We don’t have any.’
Question the first - How was the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs without any intelligence assets in Iran?[/quote]
Ummm…the CIA never lies. Never, I say.[/quote]
Either you don’t know the context or you’re even stupider than I previously gave you credit for. The CIA officer was the liason between Delta Force(the people tasked with rescuing the hostages) and the CIA. Why would the CIA lie to the hostage rescuers? Why would the CIA want the hostage rescue team to fail and the hostages to remain in Iran? Is the CIA in league with the Ayatollahs? What’s the motive? Where’s the evidence? Is there no end to this bullshit?[/quote]
Why would the CIA want to overthrow Mosaddegh? [/quote]
No seriously though, could you answer this?[/quote]
It’s complex. During WWII Iraq had a pro-Nazi coup and the British had to suppress it. Although technically neutral Iran was also an ally of Nazi Germany. The Nazis had a large, underground network in Iran that later in the war would be tasked with assassinating Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin at the Tehran conference. Iran was also of vital strategic importance due to its geographic location and oil fields.
A combined Soviet/British force invaded Iran, secured the oil fields and forced the pro-Nazi Reza Shah to resign in favour of his son. Iran then became the main supply line for Lend Lease aid to the Soviets.
At the Tehran conference, Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin made a joint declaration that their forces would leave as soon as the war ended. When the war ended US and British forces began to withdraw according to the timetable but Stalin refused, leading to the Iran crisis of 1946. The Soviet Union by then had a large political faction in Iran and was inciting a Communist/petro-nationalisation movement and destabilising the country.
In 1951 Mosaddeq nationalised the British-owned oil fields in Iran. Mosaddeq then briefly lost power in a coup then regained power(there had been six Iranian PM’s between 47-51 - very unstable) - Britain and the US became increasingly worried that the country was unstable and could fall to the Soviets. Churchill and Eisenhower therefore supported the Shah’s coup.
August 2007 Human Events Interview:
Q: You’re saying overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953 and putting in the Shah led to the hostage-taking and 9/11?
Ron Paul: Absolutely.
Question the second - Are there any Ron Paul supporters willing to back up this utter nonsense from the Doctor? Al-Qaeda is a Sunni group that has regularly truck bombed Shia mosques in Iran and Iraq. Shia Islamists assassinated the democratically elected PM of Iran in 1951. Ron Paul is claiming that the 1953 coup in Iran led Al Qaeda to commit 9/11 half a century later. Al-Qaeda was upset that Shia democracy was held back in Iran by the US? Is that what he’s saying? I mean seriously WTF?
Ron Paul:
“There’s been a coup, haven’t you heard? It’s the CIA coup. The CIA runs everything, they’re a government unto themselves; they run the military…they’re every bit as secretive as the Federal Reserve…dah dah they’re in drug business and ah…dah(drowned out by applause)”
Let’s leave the ‘big bankster’ Fed conspiracies for the moment and concentrate on the ‘CIA coup.’ I haven’t heard. Can someone show me Ron Paul’s evidence for the CIA coup? I’m sure someone who makes an accusation like that has actually presented evidence to back it up right?..Right?
Wow Sexmachine you’re making Ron Paul sound like a real nut…Oh wait, I guess he’s doing that on his own huh?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
August 2007 Human Events Interview:
Q: You’re saying overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953 and putting in the Shah led to the hostage-taking and 9/11?
Ron Paul: Absolutely.
Question the second - Are there any Ron Paul supporters willing to back up this utter nonsense from the Doctor? Al-Qaeda is a Sunni group that has regularly truck bombed Shia mosques in Iran and Iraq. Shia Islamists assassinated the democratically elected PM of Iran in 1951. Ron Paul is claiming that the 1953 coup in Iran led Al Qaeda to commit 9/11 half a century later. Al-Qaeda was upset that Shia democracy was held back in Iran by the US? Is that what he’s saying? I mean seriously WTF?[/quote]
Doesn’t matter because no government has the right to interfere with an other government.
Case closed.
And yes interfering with other governments will cause animosity. Animosity will lead to retaliation back and forth, ad nauseam.
Any half-witted grade-schooler could figure this out.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
August 2007 Human Events Interview:
Q: You’re saying overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953 and putting in the Shah led to the hostage-taking and 9/11?
Ron Paul: Absolutely.
Question the second - Are there any Ron Paul supporters willing to back up this utter nonsense from the Doctor? Al-Qaeda is a Sunni group that has regularly truck bombed Shia mosques in Iran and Iraq. Shia Islamists assassinated the democratically elected PM of Iran in 1951. Ron Paul is claiming that the 1953 coup in Iran led Al Qaeda to commit 9/11 half a century later. Al-Qaeda was upset that Shia democracy was held back in Iran by the US? Is that what he’s saying? I mean seriously WTF?[/quote]
Doesn’t matter because no government has the right to interfere with an other government.
Case closed.
[/quote]
Oh I see then if you were President you would disband the CIA and other US spy agencies, true? And if so how would you be able to deal with other governments who don’t have such a naive view and continue to spy on us and also interfere?
I guess in an ideal world where there are no enemies and it’s all sunshine and lolly pops you’re policy is right on. But in the real world we need things like an army and a CIA.
I feel like I’m talking to my 12 year old nephew-- Sorry Lifty but you really have to wake up.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Oh I see then if you were President you would disband the CIA and other US spy agencies, true?
[/quote]
My goal would be to dismantle the entire notion of government keeping people safe.
Gary Johnson in 2012.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I guess in an ideal world where there are no enemies and it’s all sunshine and lolly pops you’re policy is right on. But in the real world we need things like an army and a CIA.
[/quote]
You have no idea what the CIA is or does.
Its entire purpose is to help start foreign conflicts to keep the US Presidency in power.
In an ideal world we would be responsible for our own safety and not threatened by the actions of our own government and its secret agencies.
Governments always must have external conflict – even if it is only in a tiny, far-off place on the other side of the world. This is the only way they can maintain control through fear of outside invaders.
