Ron Paul On The Record

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1401

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
jeffdirect,

It takes a special kind of ass clown to buy into unwarranted conspiracy theories. And it looks like you fit the bill. So this is just for you, enjoy:

http://www.2spare.com/item_43133.aspx[/quote]

Nice link.
Have a look at mine.

" A federal judge ruled that the case against not only the government, but against Ms. Whitman personally, CAN GO FORWARD, and stated that Ms. Whitman s actions “SHOCK THE CONSCIENCE.” Two internal government memos were recently obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request, which reveal that the EPA KNEW THE AIR AROUND GROUND ZERO WAS UNSAFE TO BREATHE."

Will Whitman Be Prosecuted for 9/11 Lies?

Reps. Nadler, Weiner & Pascrell Request Special Counsel to Investigate Whether
Criminal Charges Should be Filed

NEW YORK �?? Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), Congressman Anthony Weiner (D-NY) and Congressman Bill Pascrell, Jr. (D-NJ) today wrote Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez requesting that a Special Counsel be appointed to investigate whether criminal charges should be brought against former EPA Administrator Christine Todd Whitman, and against other government officials, for taking actions that may have endangered the lives of thousands of people following the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York.

“Christie Whitman repeatedly declared the air safe, and now thousands of people are sick, and some have died, from World Trade Center contamination,” said Rep. Nadler. “To add insult to injury, she just went on 60 Minutes and tried to blame everybody else for her misdeeds. She must be held accountable,” he added.

“Christie Whitman lied to the public about the health hazards at Ground Zero and endangered lives,” said Rep. Weiner. “We must ensure that the accountability for these actions is not lost in a cloud of finger-pointing. Only with the appointment of a special prosecutor with subpoena power can an independent investigation occur and, if necessary, criminal charges be brought against those responsible.”

“The betrayal of the public, the first responders and all those who courageously volunteered at ground zero following this brutal attack is unconscionable,” stated Rep. Bill Pascrell, Jr. “Justice must be served. The lies and deceit have caused the deaths of men like James Zadroga, and caused thousands of others to become gravely sick. This Administration abandoned the very patriots who embodied our sense of national pride during a critical moment in American history. Now the Administration is failing to uphold our justice system. The reprehensible negligence and deception that has characterized the federal response to this real environmental health hazard is abhorrent. It is morally incumbent upon Attorney General Gonzalez to initiate the independent investigation that we have demanded.”

In August, 2003, Rep. Nadler asked the Department of Justice to initiate a federal investigation of Ms. Whitman�??s response to World Trade Center contamination following 9/11. That request was based on EPA�??s negligence and wrongdoing that has been well documented, culminating in a report that year by the EPA Inspector General that also found that the White House instructed EPA to downplay air quality concerns. To our knowledge, DOJ never opened an investigation of this matter.

Today, Reps. Nadler, Weiner, and Pascrell renewed the call for a special counsel in light of several recent developments. A class action lawsuit was filed by residents, workers and school children against the EPA, and against Ms. Whitman personally, for taking actions and making statements that knowingly placed the victims in the way of harmful contamination. A federal judge ruled that the case against not only the government, but against Ms. Whitman personally, can go forward, and stated that Ms. Whitman�??s actions “shock the conscience.” Two internal government memos were recently obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request, which reveal that the EPA knew the air around Ground Zero was unsafe. In addition, Ms. Whitman may have had a financial conflict-of-interest, and perhaps should have recused herself from the World Trade Center case.

“Unfortunately, the Department of Justice cannot investigate this matter. Since the Department�??s refusal to initiate an investigation two years ago, DOJ decided to represent the EPA and Ms. Whitman personally in the class action suit brought by residents, workers and students from New York,” the Members wrote. “Therefore, only a special counsel can independently review this case and consider bringing charges against Christine Todd Whitman and other officials who recklessly endangered the lives and health of thousands of American citizens and heroes.”

http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny08_nadler/WhitmanProsecuted091306.html

1402

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
There is no way we can trust private industry to self regulate in critical life and death areas.[/quote]

You already do trust private industry with your safety you just don’t realize it. Government cannot protect you from making bad decisions – nor is it its job to.

You fly yet there is no government official in the cockpit making sure the pilot doesn’t make a mistake. There are not officials in an operating room when you have surgery. There aren’t inspectors standing over a chef watching him prepare your meal in a restaurant. People make mistakes…government cannot stop that nor prevent immoral behavior. But the market will punish those people and so will law enforcement.

Private industry is already self-regulating by profit and loss. Government monopolies lack oversight in the market and therefore lack accountability. Bureaucrats don’t care about voters nor do they care about inefficiency or the customers they serve. “The bigger the better” is their motto. Self interest unchecked by a sound market leads to corruption even in the government.

1404

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
There is no way we can trust private industry to self regulate in critical life and death areas.

You already do trust private industry with your safety you just don’t realize it. Government cannot protect you from making bad decisions – nor is it its job to.

You fly yet there is no government official in the cockpit making sure the pilot doesn’t make a mistake. There are not officials in an operating room when you have surgery. There aren’t inspectors standing over a chef watching him prepare your meal in a restaurant. People make mistakes…government cannot stop that nor prevent immoral behavior. But the market will punish those people and so will law enforcement.

Private industry is already self-regulating by profit and loss. Government monopolies lack oversight in the market and therefore lack accountability. Bureaucrats don’t care about voters nor do they care about inefficiency or the customers they serve. “The bigger the better” is their motto. Self interest unchecked by a sound market leads to corruption even in the government.[/quote]

The government has oversight in all the examples you listed!

1405

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
There is no way we can trust private industry to self regulate in critical life and death areas.

You already do trust private industry with your safety you just don’t realize it. Government cannot protect you from making bad decisions – nor is it its job to.

You fly yet there is no government official in the cockpit making sure the pilot doesn’t make a mistake. There are not officials in an operating room when you have surgery. There aren’t inspectors standing over a chef watching him prepare your meal in a restaurant. People make mistakes…government cannot stop that nor prevent immoral behavior. But the market will punish those people and so will law enforcement.

Private industry is already self-regulating by profit and loss. Government monopolies lack oversight in the market and therefore lack accountability. Bureaucrats don’t care about voters nor do they care about inefficiency or the customers they serve. “The bigger the better” is their motto. Self interest unchecked by a sound market leads to corruption even in the government.

The government has oversight in all the examples you listed![/quote]

Exactly! And they don’t make you safer because there is no “oversight” while the job is actually being done – there are no inspectors in the cockpit instructing the pilot how to fly the plane; no regulators standing over doctors’ shoulders telling him what to do. The only thing regulators can do is fine people and put people in jail for non-compliance. Can’t a functioning legal system do that after a crime is committed?

All we need is a good understanding of the rule of laws and contracts.

1406

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
There is no way we can trust private industry to self regulate in critical life and death areas.

You already do trust private industry with your safety you just don’t realize it. Government cannot protect you from making bad decisions – nor is it its job to.

You fly yet there is no government official in the cockpit making sure the pilot doesn’t make a mistake. There are not officials in an operating room when you have surgery. There aren’t inspectors standing over a chef watching him prepare your meal in a restaurant. People make mistakes…government cannot stop that nor prevent immoral behavior. But the market will punish those people and so will law enforcement.

Private industry is already self-regulating by profit and loss. Government monopolies lack oversight in the market and therefore lack accountability. Bureaucrats don’t care about voters nor do they care about inefficiency or the customers they serve. “The bigger the better” is their motto. Self interest unchecked by a sound market leads to corruption even in the government.

The government has oversight in all the examples you listed!

Exactly! And they don’t make you safer because there is no “oversight” while the job is actually being done – there are no inspectors in the cockpit instructing the pilot how to fly the plane; no regulators standing over doctors’ shoulders telling him what to do. The only thing regulators can do is fine people and put people in jail for non-compliance. Can’t a functioning legal system do that after a crime is committed?

All we need is a good understanding of the rule of laws and contracts.

[/quote]

It makes us far safer that these corporations have to meet safety regulations!

Government mandated standards are the reason thousands don’t die everytime there is a natural disaster in this country.

You really are hugely confused.

1407

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
There is no way we can trust private industry to self regulate in critical life and death areas.

You already do trust private industry with your safety you just don’t realize it. Government cannot protect you from making bad decisions – nor is it its job to.

You fly yet there is no government official in the cockpit making sure the pilot doesn’t make a mistake. There are not officials in an operating room when you have surgery. There aren’t inspectors standing over a chef watching him prepare your meal in a restaurant. People make mistakes…government cannot stop that nor prevent immoral behavior. But the market will punish those people and so will law enforcement.

Private industry is already self-regulating by profit and loss. Government monopolies lack oversight in the market and therefore lack accountability. Bureaucrats don’t care about voters nor do they care about inefficiency or the customers they serve. “The bigger the better” is their motto. Self interest unchecked by a sound market leads to corruption even in the government.

The government has oversight in all the examples you listed!

Exactly! And they don’t make you safer because there is no “oversight” while the job is actually being done – there are no inspectors in the cockpit instructing the pilot how to fly the plane; no regulators standing over doctors’ shoulders telling him what to do. The only thing regulators can do is fine people and put people in jail for non-compliance. Can’t a functioning legal system do that after a crime is committed?

All we need is a good understanding of the rule of laws and contracts.

It makes us far safer that these corporations have to meet safety regulations!

Government mandated standards are the reason thousands don’t die everytime there is a natural disaster in this country.

You really are hugely confused.
[/quote]
How does government know how to best educate YOUR child? How does the government best know how to make YOU healthy? How does the government know how best to do anything it does? It doesn’t. The State will never admit to not knowing because it isn’t in their interest to do so.

What makes regulations “safe”? Who gets to decide what is safe? Where do “regulators” get perfect knowledge of how to regulate?
Where does the technology that enables regulators to regulate come from? I’ll give you a hint – its cooperation between the division of labor and knowledge that arises in the free market – not the Department of Truth.

The market ALWAYS regulates itself.

1408

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Dude, I think what Mikey was trying to say is that you make supporters of Ron Paul look bad by calling people out like you were and on this forum Ron Paul is the cause, Mikey supports Ron Paul so yes you are talking about the same cause.

Then you come on with a left field “OLD FART” reference, misuse the word investigator instead of instigator, and generally sound like an undereducated fucking idiot and give credence to people like Mick that think all Ron Paul supporters are clueless teenagers. YOU ARE NOT HELPING THE CAUSE OF RON PAUL OR PATRIOTISM WHEN YOU SPOUT OFF LIKE THIS!!

Mike clearly alluded pro Iraq war people as being patriots, so i set him straight in his boots.

And Mike IS AN OLD FART, i recognised the tone.

[/quote]

I didn’t catch that inference from his post but if that is the case then he is sadly in need of a history/patriotism lesson

1409

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
storey420 wrote:
The problem is that not enough people have heard of Paul thanks to mainstream media neglect but if the funds can be raised and he can buy exposure, more will surely join America’s last chance for change.

We know…we know…if only more people could hear about Ron Paul they’d immediately fall in love with him. They’d love that shrill voice, and the way he rambles on about dismantling the federal government and pulling every American solider out of Iraq with no thought or plan. Hey…what’s not to like right? That damn media, they’re always ignoring those who have less than 5% in all of the legitimate national polls.

It must be a conspiracy…right?

Yes…that’s what it is.

Mick,

What about the people like you and I who have heard his “message” and soundly reject it?

Wait, we are the “sheep” and the “establishment.”

What a dean-like waste of money.

Wait, it’s not dean-like. howard “arrgghhh” dean actually had part of his party’s support.

JeffR
[/quote]

That is not why you are sheeple. It is because you joy in trying to trounce people for believing in a cause, for standing up for someone that while being a long shot is absolutely the best choice to effect a change in our government, also you are sheeple because you like the distraction that is our current situation. If you seriously think Guliani is the man for the job, then yes you a sheeple.

1410

[quote]storey420 wrote:
jeffdirect wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Dude, I think what Mikey was trying to say is that you make supporters of Ron Paul look bad by calling people out like you were and on this forum Ron Paul is the cause, Mikey supports Ron Paul so yes you are talking about the same cause.

Then you come on with a left field “OLD FART” reference, misuse the word investigator instead of instigator, and generally sound like an undereducated fucking idiot and give credence to people like Mick that think all Ron Paul supporters are clueless teenagers. YOU ARE NOT HELPING THE CAUSE OF RON PAUL OR PATRIOTISM WHEN YOU SPOUT OFF LIKE THIS!!

Mike clearly alluded pro Iraq war people as being patriots, so i set him straight in his boots.

And Mike IS AN OLD FART, i recognised the tone.

I didn’t catch that inference from his post but if that is the case then he is sadly in need of a history/patriotism lesson
[/quote]

Alright you two, you got my feathers up sufficiently. I was hoping I could keep my mouth shut when my character was called into question, but I suppose if Hamilton couldn’t lower his pen in the case of newspaper attacks, I cannot knock myself for being alittle too proud to give you assholes ten minutes of my time.

I am openly challenging you both as to your credentials as to why you are such great patriots. Let’s hear it. All’s fair so gentlemen, for good or bad, here’s Mike’s character on the table:

1-Eagle Scout
2-Infantry Marine (served in Phillipines during OEF)
3-Voted George Bush in 2000
4-Left Marine Corps
5-Became American History student at University of Idaho where I was a member of the College Republicans
5.1-Outspoken supporter of gay rights and am still fighting for the right to carry firearms on campus
6-Volunteered for a tour in Iraq in 2005 for Humanitarian reasons (ALL men are created equal, not just Americans)
6.1-got in trouble repeatedly for giving classes on the Constitution and role of gov’t as a squad leader.
7-Voted for Michael Badnarik in 2004
8-Left college republicans when I learned that today’s republicans are not Barry Goldwaters or Ronald Reagans
9-Open carries his pistol in town as a political statement despite much harassment by the local police.
10-Has written and distributed essays and broadsides re: current state of American liberty
11-Can bury either of you two in knowledge of the revolution or early republic
12-Am in the formative stage of the establishment of a local militia, the Palouse Sons of Liberty
12.1-Have currently promoted the purchase and training of local college students in the use of battle rifles
13-Have donated my pen and my wallet in support of Ron Paul

That’s all I can think of in a few minutes, I’m sure there is more.

This all said, let me explain something to you two gentlemen. Your rhetoric is not that of liberty. Your rhetoric is that of jacobins. Gentlemen can disagree. There are obviously lines one cannot cross, such as violations of the Constitution. All this said, Dr. Paul is wrong. You cannot merely crack the Constitution and have obvious answers right there in your face about every facet of our government. In some cases it is true, but certainly not all. Such battles have been fought since the earliest days of the republic. Dr. Paul is also wrong in his statement that our founders were non-interventionalists. So when you two start spouting fundamentalist propoganda you sound the part of jacobins. You believe in freedom, unless my idea of freedom does not line up with yours; in such a case the streets run red with blood when the libertarians are called fascists by the anarchists or vice versa.

All I had said in the post was that it is uncouth to show up and start questioning the patriotism of men on this board without making that judgement based on the experience and the bulk of their arguments. If such heavy rhetoric must be used, it should be used when one has a wealth of experience to back up such a claim.

By acting in the manner Mr. Jeffdirect has acted, it hurts the cause of Ron Paul…MY CAUSE, because he plays right into JeffR’s hands. Mr. Jeffdirect sounds exactly like a pissed off teenager who sits at home listening to Rage Against the Machine; the exact accusation JeffR has made of Paul’s supporters.

I humbly await my history lesson.

Semper Fidelis,

mike

1411

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

12-Am in the formative stage of the establishment of a local militia, the Palouse Sons of Liberty
mike[/quote]

I want to hear more about this! Has there been any concern from law enforcement? Not trying to be a smart-ass here. After all, I do recognize the right of the people to do what you’re doing. Just wondering if local (worse yet, federal) authorities have contacted you at all. And, have you a charter or some such thing?

Really, I just find this fascinating. You see, I grew up in a town where gun ownership was by far the norm, so I’m very comfortable with the right to carry. However, I never caught wind of any organized militias. Intriguing.

Also, I like to request permission to send a PM before doing so. Would you mind? Nothing related to the above. More of a “required reading” question(s).

1412

Mike, you don’t have to demonstrate your patriotism for that assclown. We know you are the man.

1413

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

How does government know how to best educate YOUR child? [/quote]

And yet you still teach at a public school?

1414

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

Your rhetoric is that of jacobins…So when you two start spouting fundamentalist propoganda you sound the part of jacobins. You believe in freedom, unless my idea of freedom does not line up with yours; in such a case the streets run red with blood when the libertarians are called fascists by the anarchists or vice versa. [/quote]

A good post generally, but this nails it.

1416

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

How does government know how to best educate YOUR child?

And yet you still teach at a public school?

How dare you confuse Lifts real life with his forum blather. [/quote]

To address the point, I think I know better how to educate my kid than most people. I appreciate the federal government setting minimum guidelines but I don’t want them to overstep their bounds.

I think local government should have its say too but all too often its rules are incredibly stupid. Witness the “no hugging” suspension in the news today.

Does the Department of Education need to be fixed? Yes. Abolished? Probably not.

Paul really doesn’t present solutions in many fields, just chaos. It may make people that are mad at the system feel good in the short run but the solutions are not there.

1417

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

How does government know how to best educate YOUR child?

And yet you still teach at a public school?
[/quote]

I don’t force people to go to public school. At the collegiate level there is choice in the matter.

1418

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
I am openly challenging you both as to your credentials as to why you are such great patriots.

1-Eagle Scout
2-Infantry Marine (served in Phillipines during OEF)
3-Voted George Bush in 2000
…ad nauseum… [/quote]

Where’s your attempt to equate PATRIOTISM with PRO IRAQ WAR stand, OLD GAY FART ?

You want people to give you a medal ?
Is it what your post is about ?

I still think you’re a useless spineless coward, and i only hope one day you join a pro iraq war demonstration so i can stomp on your testicules and show you the way out of America.

1419

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
I am openly challenging you both as to your credentials as to why you are such great patriots.

1-Eagle Scout
2-Infantry Marine (served in Phillipines during OEF)
3-Voted George Bush in 2000
…ad nauseum…

Where’s your attempt to equate PATRIOTISM with PRO IRAQ WAR stand, OLD GAY FART ?

You want people to give you a medal ?
Is it what your post is about ?

I still think you’re a useless spineless coward, and i only hope one day you join a pro iraq war demonstration so i can stomp on your testicules and show you the way out of America.

[/quote]

Ok…anyone have a tranquilizer?

1420

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
I still think you’re a useless spineless coward, and i only hope one day you join a pro iraq war demonstration so i can stomp on your testicules and show you the way out of America.
[/quote]
So you are anti-war…? Just not necessarily pro-peace? Yikes, dude. Get a grip. You cannot know the motivations of a person’s heart. Why don’t you take a cue from Paul put his principles to practice?