Ron Paul On The Record

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t understand your distinction between isolationism and non-intervention.

Either we are actively involved in the world or we are not.

The distinction lies in the question of whether to use or abstain from using force. It’s no different abroad than it is at home. Libertarians and Constitutionalists don’t condone the use of coercion in human interactions, and they recognize government as the primary agency of coercion in society.

“Peace and honest trade with all nations, entangling alliances with none.” There is no need to become militarily involved with nations that haven’t threatened us or haven’t the means of carrying out an attack on American soil.

Zap Branigan wrote:
He attacked us because the US is preventing him from imposing his tyrannical brand of Islamic rule in Saudi Arabia and around the world.

Now that we know why he did it should we let him have his way or should we oppose him?

“Non-intervention” says we should let him have his way.

Actually, “non-interventionism” says we shouldn’t have funded and equipped him in the first place. That’s the part neocons always, always, always leave out.

Non-interventionism further goes on to say that, now that we’ve dug our way into into a sandtrap, let’s get out the best way we can. There are several proposed methods of dealing with existing terrorist threats from within a non-interventionist framework.

First of all, you stop feeding the flames. You pull the hell out of the occupied countries and leave them without a reason to bitch at you. This is common sense. When your boat springs a leak, what do you do first – attempt to patch the hole or grab a bucket and madly start tossing the rushing water overboard?

Simply withdrawing from the occupied territories would go a long way towards addressing the terrorist threat. At that point, you would take stock of the situation and consider whether anything further could or should be done to pursue known terrorist groups.

If they were deeply hidden and there was very little chance of finding them, you’d bite the bullet and accept the loss (let’s not pretend that the U.S. is capable of solving any international dispute and tracking down whomever it wants, because it isn’t, as clearly demonstrated in the case of OBL).

If there is a reasonable chance of capturing known terrorists, you put out a large bounty and let the magic of capitalism do it’s work. Governments of dirt-poor, third-world nations are very susceptible to bribes.

There is no reason why they wouldn’t hand over a marginal criminal group to the United States in return for a large bounty, provided they weren’t putting their popularity in jeopardy by doing so.

In neither case would you react to the criminal act of terrorism by launching a war and invading an entire nation. That be the equivalent of trying to plug-up your leaking boat by shooting bullets square into the hole.

Zap Branigan wrote:
“Non-intervention” would have sat out WWII by not giving Japan reason to attack us.

I am sure THAT would have made the world a better place.

If “non-intervention” had been practiced during WWI, there likely wouldn’t have been a WW2! Gee, maybe something could be learned from this. Why is it that neocons always completely ignore WWI when bringing up historical examples to justify intervention? Answer: Because history began in 1938, according to the neocons.

Zap Branigan wrote:
I have to say I am seriously disappointed with this guy.

He comes across as a radio host that only criticizes and does not offer any realistic solutions.

And you come across as a guy who is looking to fix a broken system from within the system. Everything else is “unrealistic”…[/quote]

Would you have peace and free trade with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?

Would you trade with them while they are at war with Britain, Poland etc?

Do you propose revolution? It seems improvement must come from within the system or we must destroy the system.

I think things are a little too good to destroy the system and rebuild, hoping it will come out better next time.

I suspect if there is a revolution things will be far worse in the long and short term.

And you are also repeating the often told lie. We never funded or supported OBL and the Taliban came into existence after we stopped working with Afghanistan.

Our major failing in that area was to stop supporting our interests.

[quote]orion wrote:

If non-intervention had started before entering WWI it might have worked. without the financial moral and political costs for the USA.[/quote]

Entering WWI may have been a mistake but to blame WWII on America’s entry in that war is revisionist.

America’s participation in WWI had little effect on the outcome.

There would have been some sort of peace, there would have been global depression and then there would have been war again.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:

Discourage you?

You can be discouraged that easily?

Oh that’s right you’re a Ron Paul supporter. It doesn’t take much to sway you away from that loser.[/quote]

Excellent point. Or rather, it would be, if I had said I was discouraged. I clearly said you were “trying to discourage me”, not that you were succeeding. But, other than being based on completely false assumptions, you just totally owned me!

Yes I did. Rudy owned Paul in much the same way that you just owned me. Which is to say he blatantly mis-stated Paul’s argument, and then completely destroying that fictional argument Paul didn’t make.
Aside from being brutally effective, this tact is also completely disingenuous.

“The difference” as I see it, is that Ron Paul trusts the American people with all the freedoms laid out in the Constitution, whereas most of the others think those freedoms need to be tightly regulated.

The other difference that’s clear to me is that Ron Paul is willing to consider the possibility that utilizing the US Military around the world as a “whomping stick” instead of as a “credible threat” might make us appear to be bullies on the world stage.

Meanwhile, all the “real” candidates apparently believe that US Foreign Policy is infallible at all times, and nobody ever deserves to be angry at our perfect country. And thus all dissenters should be shouted down, put away, or blown up.

[quote]Ron Paul lacks something…no wait, he lacks everything from charisma to financial support.

But I don’t mind if you vote for him. That’s one vote that basically won’t count toward any of the others that can actually win.

So…go ahead.[/quote]

I was planning to, until your persuasive arguments about Paul’s lack of charisma and funding changed my mind.

I guess I’ll drop my dream of voting for the person I think is most interested in preserving my Rights, and just vote for whoever is most likely to win it all. So… Hillary, I guess?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

If non-intervention had started before entering WWI it might have worked. without the financial moral and political costs for the USA.

Entering WWI may have been a mistake but to blame WWII on America’s entry in that war is revisionist.

America’s participation in WWI had little effect on the outcome.

There would have been some sort of peace, there would have been global depression and then there would have been war again.[/quote]

Without you firing up the printing presses and financially aiding GB and France the war would have been over in months and certainly not a war of attrition that lasted for years.

That lead to, not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR revolutions in countries involved in the war.

Germany, Austria-Hungary and two in Russia which changed Europe forever and of course the treaties of Versaille and St Germain.

Little effect on the outcome?

Ron Paul will reference the Illuminati before the election in 08.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Ron Paul will reference the Illuminati before the election in 08.[/quote]

I get the same vibe from the guy.

Here’s Ron Paul appearing on Bill Maher’s show. Ron Paul predicts Rudy will apologize to him, after reading the list of books Paul gave him to read:

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

If non-intervention had started before entering WWI it might have worked. without the financial moral and political costs for the USA.

Entering WWI may have been a mistake but to blame WWII on America’s entry in that war is revisionist.

America’s participation in WWI had little effect on the outcome.

There would have been some sort of peace, there would have been global depression and then there would have been war again.

Without you firing up the printing presses and financially aiding GB and France the war would have been over in months and certainly not a war of attrition that lasted for years.

That lead to, not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR revolutions in countries involved in the war.

Germany, Austria-Hungary and two in Russia which changed Europe forever and of course the treaties of Versaille and St Germain.

Little effect on the outcome?[/quote]

If America was not involved it still would have been a blood bath. The Czar still would have fallen and Germany would have went at it again.

Hell, if WWII would have ended with anything less that the thorough destruction of Germany they would have started WWIII.

Trying to pin these wars on America instead of German aggression is laughable. They were an extremely militaristic and warlike society.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

If non-intervention had started before entering WWI it might have worked. without the financial moral and political costs for the USA.

Entering WWI may have been a mistake but to blame WWII on America’s entry in that war is revisionist.

America’s participation in WWI had little effect on the outcome.

There would have been some sort of peace, there would have been global depression and then there would have been war again.

Without you firing up the printing presses and financially aiding GB and France the war would have been over in months and certainly not a war of attrition that lasted for years.

That lead to, not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR revolutions in countries involved in the war.

Germany, Austria-Hungary and two in Russia which changed Europe forever and of course the treaties of Versaille and St Germain.

Little effect on the outcome?

If America was not involved it still would have been a blood bath. The Czar still would have fallen and Germany would have went at it again.

Hell, if WWII would have ended with anything less that the thorough destruction of Germany they would have started WWIII.

Trying to pin these wars on America instead of German aggression is laughable. They were an extremely militaristic and warlike society.[/quote]

I do not pin it on the US.

Yes, they were insane as the Arabs seem to be now.

However, you start at WWII, forgetting the US intervention, that made the next intervention necessary, that made the next intervention necessary and so on…

You cannot randomly pick one date and say that interventionism was necessary then, when interventionism helped bring the world to that day.

If you want to earn the right to say you have nothing to do with it, have nothing to do with it.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:

And yes Rudy owned Paul.
[/quote]

Right after a blue vortex sucked the Republican debate into an alternate universe.

Yeah, but he is in touch with reality.

Good thing, not only for a doctor.

Is Ron Paul psychic? He seems to know exactly what?s going to happen.

I hear lots of ideology, the United States is going by way of Rome and our liberty is being crushed forever yammering (which has been blathered about incessantly since George Washington?s first term) and very little of what he?s actually planning on doing.

What Constitutional rights is Ron Paul going to preserve that the other candidates are going to crush? What is his position on defense and is he influenced by the pacifism of Murray Rothbard? Does he want to go back to the gold standard? Does he want to switch everything – including roads, the criminal system, etc – to purely for-profit-motive?

I seriously don’t know much about him or his position…and those quotes don’t help much.

[quote]bradley wrote:
Ron Paul gave Rudy a reading list, so Rudy could educate himself on foriegn affairs and how they played into the rise of terrorism. That was a pretty good burn.

David Cross has a good joke about this, saying that Bin Laden didn’t attack us for our freedom, if he was trying to attack freedom then the Netherlands would be wiped off the map by now. He attacked America because of our many military bases in the middle east and because of our propping up Israel at the expense of Palestine.

And then he says How do I know that’s why Bin Laden attacked us?

BECAUSE HE FUCKING SAID SO!!![/quote]

To my fellow Republicans:

Please note that the most vociferous democratic hacks are attacking Rudy.

They know full well that Ron Paul hasn’t a chance in hell.

Therefore, they’ll go along with the Ron Paul movement to further their own agenda.

You’ll be able to tell which candidate they fear.

As usual, it has very little to do with principle.

It has everything to do with power.

I view attacks by the Anti-Americans (lixy,orion, etc), moveon.org’s (bradley), and nutcases (petey) as a compliment to Rudy’s strength.

Further, if these twirps are agreeing with you, isn’t it time to reevaluate your arguments?

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
As usual, it has very little to do with principle.
[/quote]
It has everything to do with principle. Come on! It’s Rudy. How can a liberal NYC mayor like him ever be a president of any nation?

I don’t know how it’s possible but he sounds like a bigger douchebag than George W. Bush.

[quote]Cunnivore wrote:
I know he’s not popular with a lot of “mainstream” conservatives, but I like Ron Paul a lot. I think that he is one of the few candidates who really believes that the citizens should be free from as much government intervention as possible.

His views on foriegn policy seem a bit unrealistic at this point, but I think “non-interventionist” is a reasonable long-term goal. It is not the “isolationism” that he has been labelled with by some of the other Republicans.

I’m going to keep resarching, but right now, I’m leaning toward voting for Paul at every opportunity.[/quote]

The corporate republicans have to label him “isolationist” because they know it has a negative conotation with the public. They will use what they can to make him look bad and deflect any real debate. Look for the democrats to help out if he begins to show real viability in the race.

They do have some fear that the public might start to think about Ron Paul’s ideas seriously. And that is a dangerous thing for the political status quo.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Cunnivore wrote:
I know he’s not popular with a lot of “mainstream” conservatives, but I like Ron Paul a lot. I think that he is one of the few candidates who really believes that the citizens should be free from as much government intervention as possible.

His views on foriegn policy seem a bit unrealistic at this point, but I think “non-interventionist” is a reasonable long-term goal. It is not the “isolationism” that he has been labelled with by some of the other Republicans.

I’m going to keep resarching, but right now, I’m leaning toward voting for Paul at every opportunity.

Agree with this. I am far from a doctrinaire libertarian, but Paul strikes me as smarter than most of the people running, and more honest than all of them.

And I agree with you about the difference between isolationism and non-intervention. The way he is getting slandered by the usual media assholes (Hannity, etc.) is disgusting.[/quote]

Hannity is just another cog in the corporate machine. No one should be surprised by this.

[quote]Brad61 wrote:
Ron Paul gave Rudy a reading list, so Rudy could educate himself on foriegn affairs and how they played into the rise of terrorism. That was a pretty good burn.

David Cross has a good joke about this, saying that Bin Laden didn’t attack us for our freedom, if he was trying to attack freedom then the Netherlands would be wiped off the map by now. He attacked America because of our many military bases in the middle east and because of our propping up Israel at the expense of Palestine.

And then he says How do I know that’s why Bin Laden attacked us?

BECAUSE HE FUCKING SAID SO!!![/quote]

If only everyone else understood this…

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Cunnivore wrote:
Mick28 wrote:

So you’re the one!

Someone’s gotta do it.

Oh, and nice job trying to discourage me from voting for the person I think is best suited for the job, by the way - keep up the good work!

Discourage you?

You can be discouraged that easily?

Oh that’s right you’re a Ron Paul supporter. It doesn’t take much to sway you away from that loser.

I like it when he debates with the real candidates. Did you see Rudy own him in the last debate?

I don’t like Rudy but you can see clearly the difference between the real candidates and people like Ron Paul when they’re all up there on stage together.

Ron Paul lacks something…no wait, he lacks everything from charisma to financial support.

But I don’t mind if you vote for him. That’s one vote that basically won’t count toward any of the others that can actually win.

So…go ahead.[/quote]

He may lack some chrisma and certainly money but you are so wrong on the point of his debate. Anyone who’s taken a remedial class in formal debates could see the infantile bombast of Rudy. He made Rudy look like an overinflated jingoist. Oh wait… Rudy did that all himself! Paul stuck to his guns and wasn’t intimidated by the republican machine. Kudos to him. He is the only one worth watching in the debates. The rest of those clowns just regurgitate the republican propaganda line.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
bradley wrote:
Ron Paul gave Rudy a reading list, so Rudy could educate himself on foriegn affairs and how they played into the rise of terrorism. That was a pretty good burn.

David Cross has a good joke about this, saying that Bin Laden didn’t attack us for our freedom, if he was trying to attack freedom then the Netherlands would be wiped off the map by now. He attacked America because of our many military bases in the middle east and because of our propping up Israel at the expense of Palestine.

And then he says How do I know that’s why Bin Laden attacked us?

BECAUSE HE FUCKING SAID SO!!!

To my fellow Republicans:

Please note that the most vociferous democratic hacks are attacking Rudy.

They know full well that Ron Paul hasn’t a chance in hell.

Therefore, they’ll go along with the Ron Paul movement to further their own agenda.

You’ll be able to tell which candidate they fear.

As usual, it has very little to do with principle.

It has everything to do with power.

I view attacks by the Anti-Americans (lixy,orion, etc), moveon.org’s (bradley), and nutcases (petey) as a compliment to Rudy’s strength.

Further, if these twirps are agreeing with you, isn’t it time to reevaluate your arguments?

JeffR

[/quote]

Of course they will let Ron Paul go … but only until/if he gains momentum. The reps will most likely try and make him look like a kook because he dares speak out of the normal frame of debate.

Were the people of Russia anti-russians because they disagreed with the policy of the state and the powers that be?