Do you think someone complained or something?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“All over” may be a bit overstated, but See Romans 3:1-2 It’s late Chris.[/quote]
Yes, that refers to the Torah, what about the other parts of the OT?
According to Scott Hahn:
[quote]Torah spoken to Moses and written down for Israel. This gave a great advantage to the covenant people compared to the rest of the world because it ordered their worship, gave them clear guidelines for living, and drew them closer to God. An inventory of these benefits is listed in 9:4-5.
Hahn, Scott; Mitch, Curtis; Scott Hahn; Curtis Mitch (2010-06-14). The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament (Kindle Locations 16064-16065). Ignatius Press. Kindle Edition. [/quote]
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Do you think someone complained or something?
[/quote]
Probably, but usually they tell you what happened.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Do you think someone complained or something?
[/quote]
Probably, but usually they tell you what happened.[/quote]I honestly have NO idea who that would possibly be. I have had NO conflict or even mild tension with ANYBODY in PM’s since Ephrem politely asked me to stop sending him info on lipid adapted eating a couple months ago. Real sweet Eph ol buddy ol pal. See if I ever do anything nice for you again. Actually I still would =]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“All over” may be a bit overstated, but See Romans 3:1-2 It’s late Chris.[/quote]
Yes, that refers to the Torah, what about the other parts of the OT?
According to Scott Hahn:
[quote]Torah spoken to Moses and written down for Israel. This gave a great advantage to the covenant people compared to the rest of the world because it ordered their worship, gave them clear guidelines for living, and drew them closer to God. An inventory of these benefits is listed in 9:4-5.
Hahn, Scott; Mitch, Curtis; Scott Hahn; Curtis Mitch (2010-06-14). The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament (Kindle Locations 16064-16065). Ignatius Press. Kindle Edition. [/quote][/quote]I’m pressed for time right now, but this is simply not true Chris. “Logion” is used variously to mean communication, revelation, the Word/s, utterances, responses of God. Here it means simply the whole of the revealed mind of God in my humble, but accurate opinion.(I can hear you already =] ) There is NO evidence that the apostle here is constraining his usage to the torah alone. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Unfortunately your Hahn quote will not do it You’ll find out why.
I turned the next page with Chris’s guy over here: http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/2012/06/myth-busters-catholicism-teaches.html The following is what I posted to Brent who I have grown to have a higher regard for than at first:
I asked: “I do assume you believe that this site, including the offering on this page to be faithful to Catholic doctrine and dogma and therefore preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? Wouldn’t that be true?”
What we have here is an article that faithfully represents the Roman Catholic faith and hence the Gospel of Jesus Christ, imperiling unbelievers. Rather than “the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe” it appears that the proclamation of the “good news” is to some folks the power of man unto a previously avoided damnation. That news is not good.
And this based upon an interpretation of the 14th and 15th verses of the letter of the apostle Paul “to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints”, which advances the view that the unevangelized heathen in some cases actually do by nature the requirements of the law?
This is a serious, levelheaded and charitable question I’m asking here. Your church makes some VERY large claims with VERY large implications for every man, women and child generated from father Adam until the end of the age. I do too btw, but I am willing to field questions from anybody anywhere about anything I say. Am I wrong in assuming the same of you? Yes, I’m putting you on the spot, but that does not in any way imply hatred or hostility. I mean that.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“All over” may be a bit overstated, but See Romans 3:1-2 It’s late Chris.[/quote]
Yes, that refers to the Torah, what about the other parts of the OT?
According to Scott Hahn:
[quote]Torah spoken to Moses and written down for Israel. This gave a great advantage to the covenant people compared to the rest of the world because it ordered their worship, gave them clear guidelines for living, and drew them closer to God. An inventory of these benefits is listed in 9:4-5.
Hahn, Scott; Mitch, Curtis; Scott Hahn; Curtis Mitch (2010-06-14). The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament (Kindle Locations 16064-16065). Ignatius Press. Kindle Edition. [/quote][/quote]I’m pressed for time right now, but this is simply not true Chris. “Logion” is used variously to mean communication, revelation, the Word/s, utterances, responses of God. Here it means simply the whole of the revealed mind of God in my humble, but accurate opinion.(I can hear you already =] ) There is NO evidence that the apostle here is constraining his usage to the torah alone. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Unfortunately your Hahn quote will not do it You’ll find out why.
[/quote]
I guess my objection is to the idea that they had a settled canon. I believe the above reference is to the Torah, but I could be convinced otherwise. That is not really my point but is only minutia in the grand scheme of this debate since I have no real side on this and do not see how it goes to favor one side or the other. Though in the order of the Old Testament I still hold that the Septuagint is to be used and it was a mistake to think it was not especially since it was used by Jesus and the early Church, too bad that it was all but destroyed.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I turned the next page with Chris’s guy over here: http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/2012/06/myth-busters-catholicism-teaches.html The following is what I posted to Brent who I have grown to have a higher regard for than at first:
I asked: “I do assume you believe that this site, including the offering on this page to be faithful to Catholic doctrine and dogma and therefore preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? Wouldn’t that be true?”
What we have here is an article that faithfully represents the Roman Catholic faith and hence the Gospel of Jesus Christ, imperiling unbelievers. Rather than “the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe” it appears that the proclamation of the “good news” is to some folks the power of man unto a previously avoided damnation. That news is not good.
And this based upon an interpretation of the 14th and 15th verses of the letter of the apostle Paul “to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints”, which advances the view that the unevangelized heathen in some cases actually do by nature the requirements of the law?
This is a serious, levelheaded and charitable question I’m asking here. Your church makes some VERY large claims with VERY large implications for every man, women and child generated from father Adam until the end of the age. I do too btw, but I am willing to field questions from anybody anywhere about anything I say. Am I wrong in assuming the same of you? Yes, I’m putting you on the spot, but that does not in any way imply hatred or hostility. I mean that.[/quote]
You’re making this way too complicated.
I’ll post some stuff to make it easier to understand (hopefully). We’ll start with a thrice confirmed truth: No salvation outside the Church. If we go to the Baltimore Catechism we see something that helps us understand this in the annotation for teachers edition:
[quote]*120 Q. Why did Christ found the Church?
A. Christ founded the Church to teach, govern, sanctify, and save all men.
Annotation: “Teach” religion. “Govern” in things that regard salvation. “Sanctify,” make good. “Save” all who wish to be saved.
*121 Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.[/quote]
Well, what does this mean? Does this mean that all have to be in physical communion with the Church? No. We see this in several places in the Bible, one with the man who is not of the Apostles but proclaims Jesus and the other the “Heathens” who live by the law that God himself placed in their heart.
More BC:
[quote]Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it. In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.
Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has neverâ??even in the pastâ??had the slightest doubt of that factâ??what will become of him? If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his ministerâ??not being a true priestâ??has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contritionâ??that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholicâ??with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such actsâ??might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.
If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.
I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics. I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter. I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.
Thomas L. Kinkead. Baltimore Catechism, No. 4 / An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism of Christian Doctrine (Kindle Locations 1720-1722).[/quote]
So, if being brethren I view your salvation to be an extremely difficult manner to take outside the Church. How do you suppose I view that of pagans? That however does not mean there is not hope for their salvation, because of God’s mercy (after all if he wants to save a pagan…whom am I to say he can’t). It’s not likely (think of the movie Dumb and Dumber, 1 in a million chance of dating…so it’s possible), but it is possible.
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.
Yer jist killin me Chris. I don’t know where to start except to rub my eyes and look again to see if you really said that I make things too complicated.
Yep, Ya did.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.[/quote]
I don’t ignore you. I just don’t have all day to be on a computer.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.[/quote]
I don’t ignore you. I just don’t have all day to be on a computer.[/quote]I texted you a quick friendly hello and you ignored me. But a friendly cop talked me down off the bridge. =]
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
So the bible does or doesn’t declare itself to be divinely authoritative in your view? And what do you do with what I posted.[/quote]
Even if it did, why on earth would this suffice to guarantee its divinity?
If the Qur’an and the Bhagavad Gita declare themselves a divine authority within their own pages, how then are we to determine which, if any, are not lying? [/quote]
Cortes, I am not sure why you are asking this particular question. It’s not as if the existence of the church somehow provides an answer to the dilemma you bring up. Who cares if the church claims its documents are inspired? Other religions claim the same things about their own sacred texts. The problem you raise is in no way answered by the existence of the church. Was this just a side note on your part?[/quote]
Hey KingKai,
Not meaning to hijack your conversation with Cortes, just wanted to address this.
You expressed something interesting earlier on. Your desire to participate in the Eucharist. Why? Aside from your apparent issues with the way the church deals with it, why do you want to participate? What about it makes you want to partake?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.[/quote]
I don’t ignore you. I just don’t have all day to be on a computer.[/quote]I texted you a quick friendly hello and you ignored me. But a friendly cop talked me down off the bridge. =][/quote]
I just looked, last message I got from you was on July 25th.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.[/quote]
I don’t ignore you. I just don’t have all day to be on a computer.[/quote]I texted you a quick friendly hello and you ignored me. But a friendly cop talked me down off the bridge. =][/quote]
I just looked, last message I got from you was on July 25th.[/quote]Well fair enough Chris and you don’t owe me anything. I’m not trying to come across like that. Did you get the last one earlier that just said Sprint with the blue sad face? I’m trying to figure out if my txting is working right now too.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am hopelessly busy at the moment Chris, but I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to see you here. I wish you wouldn’t ignore me like that, but it’s your prerogative.[/quote]
I don’t ignore you. I just don’t have all day to be on a computer.[/quote]I texted you a quick friendly hello and you ignored me. But a friendly cop talked me down off the bridge. =][/quote]
I just looked, last message I got from you was on July 25th.[/quote]Well fair enough Chris and you don’t owe me anything. I’m not trying to come across like that. Did you get the last one earlier that just said Sprint with the blue sad face? I’m trying to figure out if my txting is working right now too.
[/quote]
I got it, but my phone died after that while I was texting.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I got it, but my phone died after that while I was texting.[/quote]Alright. There’s been a weird issue where I won’t get voicemail or txts and then I’ll get several days worth at once.
I thought about this long and hard. I spent about eight hours going over stuff to make it so simple that I could explain it to my grandma.
The road to Heaven is narrow, right? The path to Perdition is broad. There is a lot of ways to die, and there is only one way to live.
So, you have a narrow path, everyone has to be on this narrow path to get to Heaven (if I had to guess, I would guess it’s about three persons wide). Most people fall off this narrow path, but being Catholics we can be pulled back onto the road and out of the ditch by forgiveness and conversion. We also have a bright light illuminating this road being redeemed and having the Faith, rather than trying to look at this road with the darkened mind and weakened will we all received from our father Adam.
If a man can walk this narrow path without having the light (still by Grace) and knowledge of the road, he’s damn “lucky.”
As a Catholic, we have knowledge of this road. Our King and Lord walked it for us and taught us about it, he gave us the means to walk this road. To do justice to God or to give what is due/owed to Him, we have to follow these commandments that he gave us to travel this road.
Part of this justice we owe God is to love our neighbor as ourselves, this is because they are part of our original family (father being Adam), all men are part of this family. Being part of the new covenantal family, being a covenantal son, not in necessarily owing man anything, but owing God his due we have to reach out to those who he infinitely loves (because they are made in his image and likeness) and died for.
So, though there is a possibility that some tribesman in the jungle may have walked this narrow path by the Grace of God without light or map to come to the Eternal Wedding Feast, this is highly unlikely.
If man who has the light and map can fall off the narrow path, a man without these twos has a negligible chance of doing so. So, no there is no benefit in not preaching the Good News. There is only negatives in not doing so, both to one’s soul, but to countless other’s souls that one soul would have reached if he heard to Gospel and spread it to those he touched throughout his time in this world.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< though there is a possibility that some tribesman in the jungle may have walked this narrow path by the Grace of God without light or map to come to the Eternal Wedding Feast, >>>[/quote]How bout the devout externally moral, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslim or agnostic?
We may get somewhere here Chris. I do sincerely appreciate the time you put into this, but it was not necessary. In Adam all died. In Christ some are made alive. Paul tells us in Romans 10 that this is not possible without having heard and believed, saying that the preached word is a requirement. The bible absolutely everywhere affirms that ANY life not consumed in the self conscious worship of the one true and living God is death indeed. The fact that this even has to be discussed is astonishing.
Would you please defend the Catholic take on the 13th and 14th verses of the 2nd of Romans which declares that unevangelized heathen might do the works of the law without the law and thereby bring to themselves justification? I’m asking nicely Christopher. I spent several days trying to distill down a commentary of those two verses, but the first three chapters are relevant context in this case and I have not had the time to do this right. (I have confided in a few of you here, including you. Offline events have consumed my life)
You could really help by leading the way in representing team Vatican here Chris. All you have to worry about are those two verses since your church is utterly incapable of sound contextual exegesis whereas I must consider the entire passage from the 18th verse of chapter one all the way into and much of the way through chapter 3. That gives you a great time advantage.
I like your friend Kyle very much btw. He seems a very decent and upright young man But he is the latest in a growing list of Catholic disappointments.
I am still in prayer (I seriously am) about what if anything to do with the situation here. Fundamentalist Logic 101 It has taken the Holy Ghost in large doses to restrain my carnal arrogance Chris. I show up there and everybody scatters like herd of scalded cats. What’s one to think? That is very truly not meant in a mean or condescending manner I promise you.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
How bout the devout externally moral, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslim or agnostic?[/quote]
What do you mean by externally moral?
What take?
[quote]I am still in prayer (I seriously am) about what if anything to do with the situation here. Fundamentalist Logic 101 It has taken the Holy Ghost in large doses to restrain my carnal arrogance Chris. I show up there and everybody scatters like herd of scalded cats. What’s one to think? That is very truly not meant in a mean or condescending manner I promise you.
[/quote]
I am not really familiar with that page besides I saw I was tagged in a post while on a 1200 mile road trip to visit someone on my time off.
Most of those people are disciples of Jesus Christ and student leaders in an evangelical group at a university bringing college students to know Jesus Christ and give their lives to Him. They probably have other stuff to do besides being on the internet, like evangelizing students, running bible studies, and mentoring fellow students in dropping their nets to follow Jesus. 