Excellent point, Orion.
And as a side note, I’m convinced that illness, crime and poverty will always rise in proportion to increases in the number of doctors, policemen and welfare workers in a given area.
[quote]orion wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
One American, in eight, lives below the official poverty line.
On the other hand, as Phill Gramm once said, “America is the only nation in history where the poor people are fat.”
The poverty threshold income for a family of four in the US is $20,650. This is above the national per capita incomes of the great majority of the other countries in the world, even adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP).
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml
Sure, the disparity between the haves and the have-nots in the US is ridiculously wide, and widening… but American have-nots still have a lot more than the have-nots elsewhere.
What is even more important is the definition of poverty.
The EU definition is that you are poor if you make less than 60% of the average income.
I think the UN approach uses 50% of the average income.
That way, we will never run out of “poor” people and welfare workers will allways have job.
That means that even as incomes spread and the “poor” earn more, poverty is rising!
In official statistics anyway.[/quote]
wow, excellent points orion. Good post.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
One American, in eight, lives below the official poverty line.
On the other hand, as Phill Gramm once said, “America is the only nation in history where the poor people are fat.”
The poverty threshold income for a family of four in the US is $20,650. This is above the national per capita incomes of the great majority of the other countries in the world, even adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP).
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml
Sure, the disparity between the haves and the have-nots in the US is ridiculously wide, and widening… but American have-nots still have a lot more than the have-nots elsewhere.[/quote]
70% of the poor in the US also have air conditioning and a color TV. Many also have cars and internet access. Being poor in the US is a blessing compared to being poor in the third world.
The problem with poverty statistics is the type of poor they count. Recent collge grads for example. $20,600 is a decent salary for someone coming out of school. They are part of the working poor.
What will “lift them up” is age and experience. As they get older they will earn more. Same thing with many spouses or partners who have a second job that supplements the primary wage earner. It sounds low until you look at the numbers and realize the total family income is not always calculated correctly, especially if the family is not filing joint returns.
If you stay in school, don’t have children before you are married or at least prepared to raise them and avoid drug and alcohol abuse you will find it exceedingly unlikely you will be poor in the United States. However if you drop out of school, take drugs or sell them and have a kid before you are an adult, you are pretty much setting your own course for poverty.
The opportunity is here. The outcome is always up to the individual.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Ren wrote:
Unfortunately its basically impossible to do that. Far too many rely on automobile transportation to earn a living. Add to that the fact that a lot of people cannot switch to more fuel-efficient / flex-fuel cars and you have an industry that has a permanent, guaranteed demand.
An example to the validity of your point is that fuel is selling elsewhere in the world where prices are as high as 7.5$/gallon (Swedish price as of today). This probably seems ridiculously expensive to you with your EarthFucker-2000s, but people are still filling up their tanks around here.
But, the BIG difference is that people have developed more efficient cars and alternative fuel. Heck, they make biodiesel around here from organic garbage. It takes some time to separate your household trash, but, at the end of the day, it sure feels like an accomplishment when you know your heater and car’s energy is coming from eggshells, banana skins, teabags and macaroni leftovers.
Electricity could also be generated that way.
Did anyone watch “Who killed the electric car”? I know it’s a bit old, but what did you guys make of the Shell head-engineer of R&D on alternative fuels going on record saying that Hydrogen is never gonna happen?[/quote]
Hydrogen is made from natural gas.
This is an old tired ass debate that seems to rear it’s ugly head when ever gas prices go up.
Conservation through better gas milage vehicles (turbo diesels) and cutting back due to prices will be the only answer.
F Basil. Their model will never work for any developed country.
Like I once read on an automotive enthusiast message board re: gas prices
“Instead of complain about gas prices, I just bought stock in the gas companies.”
(or something like that)
[quote]DS 007 wrote:
let’s shut down the economy to make a point.
[/quote]
The economy cannot be shut down–that is impossible. The economy exists independent of consumption. If you slow consumption down (kind of like going on a diet) it does not kill the economy rather it stabilizes it.
Economic growth is not the only measure of a “good” economy. We should rather look at sustainability measures; for example, net resources lost per resources used. We would want a very low ratio for a “good” measure as a ratio of 1 represents absolute unsustainability. Ultimately in order for this to be a realistic we would have to slow global population growth and recycle more than we currently do.
Economic growth does not inherently mean that all people become better off–this is only applicable to those who own the means of production and is growing at an exponentially disproportionate rate to average population statistics year by year.
Think about it: how can one be better off if they have to earn more money to afford the same stuff as they did last year?
[quote]m00se wrote:
Like I once read on an automotive enthusiast message board re: gas prices
“Instead of complain about gas prices, I just bought stock in the gas companies.”
(or something like that)
[/quote]
Bingo! Didn’t buy 'em but the Mrs. HH inherited 2,200 shares of Exxon from her grandfather, along with a whole lot of other shit. Those dividends are SWEET!
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
m00se wrote:
Like I once read on an automotive enthusiast message board re: gas prices
“Instead of complain about gas prices, I just bought stock in the gas companies.”
(or something like that)
Bingo! Didn’t buy 'em but the Mrs. HH inherited 2,200 shares of Exxon from her grandfather, along with a whole lot of other shit. Those dividends are SWEET!
[/quote]
Some people were born to s ingle mother of several children on welfare and cant affford even the minimum deposit to open a stock account.
I guess I would be republican and all for high gas prices too if I came from, or married into a family that could even offer an inheritance.
[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
m00se wrote:
Like I once read on an automotive enthusiast message board re: gas prices
“Instead of complain about gas prices, I just bought stock in the gas companies.”
(or something like that)
Bingo! Didn’t buy 'em but the Mrs. HH inherited 2,200 shares of Exxon from her grandfather, along with a whole lot of other shit. Those dividends are SWEET!
Some people were born to s ingle mother of several children on welfare and cant affford even the minimum deposit to open a stock account.
I guess I would be republican and all for high gas prices too if I came from, or married into a family that could even offer an inheritance.
[/quote]
I’m the son of a truck driver and Army sergeant from WWII. My wife’s grandfather started life as a MIGRANT WORKER and wound up owning a lot of Ohio — by busting his balls. He earned every dollar, as far as I know, by his own honest effort and investing in land and stocks.
Damn right we enjoy the money. He earned it and gave some to her when he died.
[quote]Headhunter wrote: My wife’s grandfather started life as a MIGRANT WORKER and wound up owning a lot of Ohio — by busting his balls.
[/quote]
They don’t teach the virtues of “busting one’s balls” in school anymore, more’s the pity.
…well, with the possible exception of some teachers who have their class do pushups. 
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m the son of a truck driver and Army sergeant from WWII. [/quote]
Forgive me, Headhunter, I simply cannot resist.
Was your mother the truck driver or the Army sergeant?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Excellent point, Orion.
And as a side note, I’m convinced that illness, crime and poverty will always rise in proportion to increases in the number of doctors, policemen and welfare workers in a given area. [/quote]
See todays strong words-
[quote]orion wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Excellent point, Orion.
And as a side note, I’m convinced that illness, crime and poverty will always rise in proportion to increases in the number of doctors, policemen and welfare workers in a given area.
See todays strong words-
[/quote]
Ha! I have a corollary to Lord Salisbury’s statement:
“The doctors will never eradicate illness, nor the policemen crime, nor the social workers poverty, nor the clergymen sin: their livelihoods depend upon the perpetual existence of each.”
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
“The doctors will never eradicate illness, nor the policemen crime, nor the social workers poverty, nor the clergymen sin: their livelihoods depend upon the perpetual existence of each.”
[/quote]
Rather shortsighted don’t you think?
The point of these people’s existence isn’t necessarily to “eradicate” the aforementioned afflictions but rather to help lessen the suffering attributed to them. Nothing wrong with that.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
“The doctors will never eradicate illness, nor the policemen crime, nor the social workers poverty, nor the clergymen sin: their livelihoods depend upon the perpetual existence of each.”
Rather shortsighted don’t you think?
The point of these people’s existence isn’t necessarily to “eradicate” the aforementioned afflictions but rather to help lessen the suffering attributed to them. Nothing wrong with that.[/quote]
The point of a policeman’s existence is to lessen the suffering attributed to crime?
The minister is in business to lessen the suffering attributed to sin?
And I sincerely hope that if I ever go to a doctor with a serious illness, he will do more for me than just lessen the suffering attributed to that illness.
A doctor is one who has knowledge of the body and uses it to guide individuals to health.
A policeman is not one who has knowledge of the city, or of the people, and uses that knowledge to guide the multitude toward a proper order.
A ruler is prior to a policeman the way the doctor is prior to his medicines. The doctor must know his tools and his patient, and the ruler must likewise know his arms and his subjects.
In a liberal democracy such as ours, we do not generally believe that an individual should be acknowledged to know the proper ordering of the city, and so our laws and their directions are pieced together haphazardly and without an end.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The point of a policeman’s existence is to lessen the suffering attributed to crime?
[/quote]
if he stops said crime then someone has not suffered because of it–thus it is lessened
A minister can help aleviate the suffering of guilt attributed to sin.
[quote]
And I sincerely hope that if I ever go to a doctor with a serious illness, he will do more for me than just lessen the suffering attributed to that illness.[/quote]
To expect medicne to do anything other than lessen suffering is naive since it isn’t an exact science. If you happen to be lucky enough to be “healed” then that is a bonus…nonetheless, your suffering has still been lessened.
I take a Buhdist perspective on suffering. All life is suffering; some people go into noble professions to help aleviate that suffering–some go into business to profit from suffering. I am sure you can think of a few examples on your own.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
A doctor is one who has knowledge of the body and uses it to guide individuals to health.
A policeman is not one who has knowledge of the city, or of the people, and uses that knowledge to guide the multitude toward a proper order.
A ruler is prior to a policeman the way the doctor is prior to his medicines. The doctor must know his tools and his patient, and the ruler must likewise know his arms and his subjects.
In a liberal democracy such as ours, we do not generally believe that an individual should be acknowledged to know the proper ordering of the city, and so our laws and their directions are pieced together haphazardly and without an end.[/quote]
Beautifully put, Neph, as always. Although I’m not sure what it has to do with the price of crude in Kuwait…
I would love to see a dialogue between Plato and Machiavelli on the duties and responsibilities of the ruler of a city. The Prince versus The Republic. That would be fun.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
The point of a policeman’s existence is to lessen the suffering attributed to crime?
if he stops said crime then someone has not suffered because of it–thus it is lessened
The minister is in business to lessen the suffering attributed to sin?
A minister can help aleviate the suffering of guilt attributed to sin.
And I sincerely hope that if I ever go to a doctor with a serious illness, he will do more for me than just lessen the suffering attributed to that illness.
To expect medicne to do anything other than lessen suffering is naive since it isn’t an exact science. If you happen to be lucky enough to be “healed” then that is a bonus…nonetheless, your suffering has still been lessened.
I take a Buhdist perspective on suffering. All life is suffering; some people go into noble professions to help aleviate that suffering–some go into business to profit from suffering. I am sure you can think of a few examples on your own.[/quote]
I suppose you would also say that a fireman is in business to alleviate the suffering of people whose houses have burned down.
Suffering is an effect. I would expect these noble professionals to preempt any suffering by fighting its cause. I don’t want the doctor treating the symptoms I suffer from, I want him to help me to make my body free from the disease itself.
A Buddhist would recognize that while all life is suffering, suffering is the result of desire, and that true nobility lies in helping others overcome desire, not in merely helping them to deal with their suffering.
However, my original point is this: as long as crime, sickness, poverty and sin are prevalent in the world, the professions of policeman, physician, social worker and minister will never be in danger of obsolescence. Therefore, I cynically implied that the members of these professions have a vested interest in seeing that these plagues are not completely eradicated.
If it makes you happy, I will add that politicians and corporation owners probably feel the same about fear and greed.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I suppose you would also say that a fireman is in business to alleviate the suffering of people whose houses have burned down.
Suffering is an effect. I would expect these noble professionals to preempt any suffering by fighting its cause. I don’t want the doctor treating the symptoms I suffer from, I want him to help me to make my body free from the disease itself.
A Buddhist would recognize that while all life is suffering, suffering is the result of desire, and that true nobility lies in helping others overcome desire, not in merely helping them to deal with their suffering.
However, my original point is this: as long as crime, sickness, poverty and sin are prevalent in the world, the professions of policeman, physician, social worker and minister will never be in danger of obsolescence. Therefore, I cynically implied that the members of these professions have a vested interest in seeing that these plagues are not completely eradicated.
If it makes you happy, I will add that politicians and corporation owners probably feel the same about fear and greed.
[/quote]
First I must ask what do you think of as suffering? I think of it as not only pain but the alienation caused by “the result of desire”.
No, do not mistake the fact that the four examples cited in that silly quote you posted commented on by me was an assertion that all noble professions are to aleviate suffering.
For the most part I agree with everything you have said; I think we are quibbling about a relatively minor semantical detail–whether it is more noble to prempt suffering, or whatever–I don’t know.