[quote]Hanley wrote:
Baaaaaaaaaad Deadlifting
Rack Pulls (2 inches below knee):
60kg x5
100kg x3
140kg x3
180kg x3
200kg x3
220kg x3
240kg x1
260kg x0 - ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr [/quote] Maybe it was too soon after those cleans? Where did you miss the lift?[quote]
250kg x1
Stiff Leg Deads (bar not touching floor):
60kg x12
80kg x12
100kg x12
110kg 3x12
Pull thrus:
3x15
Pulldowns:
worked up to 80 x12
Reverse Hypers:
10kg 3x15
Ruuuuuuuubbish session!! [/quote]
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Hanley wrote:
C_C… thanks for that!! I think I’ll try it out now that I’ve some time to work on that sorta stuff. Makes perfect sense… I know when Pendlay was talking about his rows he mentioned how the lats retract AND arch the back, so training both at once is brilliant for em. Seems to be what you’re hitting on.
Reckon it would work if I worked up to a heavy set as per usual and then did a couple of back off sets as you describe?
You could do it that way.
I’d just try it for a few non-failure sets with a moderate or even light load so you “learn” what it should feel like, and once you have the technique down you can do whatever set/rep scheme you want…
If you’ve never retracted your scapulae after locking out rack pulls (not maxes, obviously), then whatever muscles retract your scapulae are going to be weak in comparison to your lats etc. It helps to think of yates, bo and kroc rows as exercises that aren’t meant for the lats at all, that lat-involvement is more or less a side-effect. Just focus on the retraction “getting into bottom of PL bench position” motion and start light so that your scapular retractors or whatever they’re called get a chance to build themselves up to match the strength of the rest of your back.
One top-set, 2 top sets, 3 consecutively heavier with descending reps, some low-rep and small weight-jump ramping ala CT (once you have the technique down, and your stop once you can’t retract the scapulae anymore)… Rest-pause doesn’t work so well if it’s a standing row though, both safety and breath-wise.
[/quote]
Tried the 1 arm row with the scap rotation like you suggested and goddamn my back was fried!!! That was using 30kg dumbbells 3x12… I’ve done 50’s for like 30 reps Kroc style!!!
Did a few pendlay rows and concentrated on arching my upper back as I pulled with my arms too and it feels incredibly nasty. Definitely gonna back off in weight and give these a try over the next few months. Thanks a million dude!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel,
Hey mate,
I would usually follow the bench work with 3-5 sets of 5 reps on close grip 2board presses or incline bench presses, followed by 3 sets of 8-10 reps of either flat of floor dumbell presses.
I would then do 5 sets of 8-10 reps of tbar or chest supported rows with a focus on retracting the scaps before pulling the weight up I’d retract them while you pull the weight up, actually, rather than before… Otherwise it’s kind of like your scapular retractors are doing a static hold while the rear delts and lats lift the weight. While they’re doing a hold when benching, static holds as such aren’t a great way to improve strength (and size) imo… Otherwise your scapular musculature would get stronger from benching. Got to have repetitive movement under load there. You’re also doing quite a bit of volume that day… Are you doing all sets at the same weight on your assistance work? What’s the entire split like? Regular 5/3/1 3 times a week with 4 different workouts?. I would then do 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps of either face pulls, rear delt raises or halbert raises.
If you’ve got any tips or advice I would love to hear them mate. I personally think my setup needs work to be consistent and a lot of that is based on fixing my scap strength so I can hold my upperback tight throughout the entire bench set. I will definitely take on board your tips to Hanley too.
Thanks
I’ll see if I can give you any more advice once you’ve posted the rest of your routine and perhaps your numbers on back work vs. pressing (free-weight, I can’t compare the machine stuff).
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice above mate.
I basically do the 5/3/1 on Squat, deadlift, bench and MP.
On Monday I’ll squat first doing 5/3/1 and deadlift second doing the just 5/3/1 reps I need for that on the day. The reason I do this is because my squat is weak relative to my deadlift and I’m focussing on that at the moment.
On Wednesday I’ll the 5/3/1 for Military press. I did 77.5kg * 6 reps today with the bar touching the chest on each rep. Assistance work is 3 sets of 10 reps on 1 arm press where I hit 30kg for 3 sets of 10, last couple of reps on the last set involved a bit of a lean to the side! I followed that with 5 sets on lat pulldowns (focus on retracting the scap on each before pulling), 1040kg, 1050kg, 860kg, 665kg, 5*70kg which was all I could do - pathetic, I can see Hanley laughing at me (;->)
I finished up with 3 sets of 10 reps with 10kg dmbells on rear delt raises- again pathetic!
On Saturday I do my bench as I mentioned above, to give you some pushing vs pulling strength diffs:
Last bench rep max: 120kg * 4reps
Low (30degree) incline bench: 105kg*5or6reps
Flat dumbell presses: 3 sets 8 reps with 45kgbells
Chest supported row: 5sets of 8 reps with 50/55kg on it
Dumbell row: 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps with 37.5kg/40kg dumbell (some of the reps on last set are not great)
Other lifts unrelated:
Last squat 165kg8reps beltless
Last deadlift max from 3 months ago: 220kg6or7 reps, pulled 250kg for a single in Feb
I’m too heavy at the mo and weigh 101kg at 5’9"
Appreciate any feedback on building that rowing and scap retractor strength mate would be great - many thanks
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Tried the 1 arm row with the scap rotation like you suggested and goddamn my back was fried!!! That was using 30kg dumbbells 3x12… I’ve done 50’s for like 30 reps Kroc style!!!
Did a few pendlay rows and concentrated on arching my upper back as I pulled with my arms too and it feels incredibly nasty. Definitely gonna back off in weight and give these a try over the next few months. Thanks a million dude!
[/quote]
No problem.
Seems like the muscles acting on your scapulae are definitely much weaker than your lats, rear delts and arms… Focusing on them should do great things for your bench, overhead press and shoulder health, and perhaps your cleans and pulls in general, too. I.e. higher achievable end weights on rows and better DL lockout…
In time you’ll be able to shoot past your old PR’s even with the different technique.
You might have to do some dedicated lat work though if you don’t already (rack chins or some such), DC style (i.e. sort of separate width and thickness) if you want your lats to keep growing well/become wider… Rowing with your scapulae is definitely more thickness-focused than anything else… So if you relied on rows for lat-size, some tweaking of your routine would be in order.
[quote]dheeel wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel,
Hey mate,
I would usually follow the bench work with 3-5 sets of 5 reps on close grip 2board presses or incline bench presses, followed by 3 sets of 8-10 reps of either flat of floor dumbell presses.
I would then do 5 sets of 8-10 reps of tbar or chest supported rows with a focus on retracting the scaps before pulling the weight up I’d retract them while you pull the weight up, actually, rather than before… Otherwise it’s kind of like your scapular retractors are doing a static hold while the rear delts and lats lift the weight. While they’re doing a hold when benching, static holds as such aren’t a great way to improve strength (and size) imo… Otherwise your scapular musculature would get stronger from benching. Got to have repetitive movement under load there. You’re also doing quite a bit of volume that day… Are you doing all sets at the same weight on your assistance work? What’s the entire split like? Regular 5/3/1 3 times a week with 4 different workouts?. I would then do 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps of either face pulls, rear delt raises or halbert raises.
If you’ve got any tips or advice I would love to hear them mate. I personally think my setup needs work to be consistent and a lot of that is based on fixing my scap strength so I can hold my upperback tight throughout the entire bench set. I will definitely take on board your tips to Hanley too.
Thanks
I’ll see if I can give you any more advice once you’ve posted the rest of your routine and perhaps your numbers on back work vs. pressing (free-weight, I can’t compare the machine stuff).
Thanks for the advice above mate.
I basically do the 5/3/1 on Squat, deadlift, bench and MP.
On Monday I’ll squat first doing 5/3/1 and deadlift second doing the just 5/3/1 reps I need for that on the day. The reason I do this is because my squat is weak relative to my deadlift and I’m focussing on that at the moment. [/quote] What seems to be the issue? [quote]
On Wednesday I’ll the 5/3/1 for Military press. I did 77.5kg * 6 reps today with the bar touching the chest on each rep [/quote] Considering that you go all the way down, I think that’s in good relation with your bench, though it’s not overly strong as such… Perhaps your triceps suck as well as your back, hence the low bench and upper body pushing numbers in general?
I’m not much of a fan of going down to the chest on overhead work btw… In the chest to chin range you’re at a big lever disadvantage and I noticed that working that particular part of ROM causes my shoulder health to degrade… Limiting the weight you lift due to that part of your ROM is not that great for actual shoulder strength, either. Also, the upper third of the lift is mostly tricep… Gotta think about what you want to achieve with the lift. Weak part of ROM = too little weight during shoulder part of ROM, also due to the tricep part… Plus not everyone’s structure tolerates the lockout part well (again shoulder health/impingement issues).
If you feel like experimenting a little, limit your overhead pressing to chin up to the end of the second third of the movement or so, the usual explosive positive and controlled negative. Might be even better to press off the pins, you may be weaker at first, but this quickly allows you to improve your mid-range strength on the bench and perhaps even off-the-chest strength to some degree.
Also, add some heavy tricep press (at least one per week) and maybe dead stop extensions (lying on the bench or on the floor, you lower the weight behind your head and don’t lock out with forearms pointed straight up either). Maybe I missed the tricep part of your routine or you forgot to mention it? There can be no big bench without very strong triceps…
My favs presses here would be board CGP (elbows tucked at the bottom, you can flare them out as you go up… Grip as wide as necessary, none of that 4-6 inch crap) and CGP off the pins, not as high as to make it a lockout exercise, maybe mid-way up or so instead or a tad lower. You just want to take the shoulders out of it to the best of your ability.
If you have a smith machine with no counterweights or where you can disable the counterweights, you can do In-Human Presses or Wide-SRGB with a thumb and index finger grip as well… Those are very good tricep movements and they allow you to really make it easy on the shoulders and focus on the tris and lats because you can press towards your feet (against the smith) as well as up. Standard PL setup as far as scapulae etc goes.
Furthermore, depending somewhat on your bench style (particularly if you use a closer grip like I do), Pinwheel curls or some such for the brachialis area may pay off quite a bit in added power transfer, bar-path-stability and elbow health…
As off-the-chest assistance work, I’d go with pin presses set up so that you’re pressing from just off the chest. DB work is ok too, alternate that maybe…
Heavy rear delt work… Well, elbows out a little on rows + scapular retraction motion should take care of that, plus inverted rows or so… I don’t think you’ll need much direct work there, though the rev. pec deck can work pretty well if additional work is required. [quote]
. Assistance work is 3 sets of 10 reps on 1 arm press where I hit 30kg for 3 sets of 10, last couple of reps on the last set involved a bit of a lean to the side! I followed that with 5 sets on lat pulldowns (focus on retracting the scap on each before pulling), 1040kg, 1050kg, 860kg, 665kg, 5*70kg [/quote] Ok, you did ramp up, but you wasted a ton of energy on those early sets of 10 and 8… Were your rest-periods very short?
Try something like
35x8
50x3
60xAMAP (doesn’t have to be to failure, can stay a rep shy or so… 5-8 reps here, preferably)
70xAMAP (4-6 reps? )
75xAMAP (3-8, you can get a funny neural rebound where you suddenly get more reps than on the previous set, at least it happens to me a lot… Not going to failure on the earlier sets seems to help with that)
or so, if you want…
Alternatives would be…
35x8
45x3
55xDC-style REST PAUSE (try for 15-30 total reps)
Doing them this light because that way you’ll have an easier time making your lats do the work, and you can go up in weight the following sessions… Alternatively 15-20RP, but I’d stick to 15-30.
Another one (CT style, sort of… All positives are done explosively and with controlled, but not slow, negatives… Actually, that’s done in any event, whether you use this form of ramping or not)
30 or 35 x 10-15 (the warm-up set)
45 x 1
50 x 1 (feel sets, I think they’re called… Treat them sort of like DE work)
55 x 3 (first work set… I used 80Kg as your hypothetical max here, you start your work sets at 70% of 1RM)
60 x 3 (I’m going with triples in the example, but fours or can work too… The fewer reps you do, the smaller the weight jumps should be imo)
65 x 3
70 x 3
75 x 3 (keep going after this and stop once you can’t get 3 reps or when you feel that you just barely
(80 x 2-3?) got that third rep… Number of sets varies from session to session due to that… CT would probably use some potentiation/CNS wake-up exercise prior to this, but I don’t know enough about that stuff yet to be giving out any examples. Gotta rely on your explosive lifting, feel sets and general low reps for that I guess.)
Rest periods on this last one are fairly short (the less reps, the less rest needed), but don’t make them so short that your strength suffers.
Another way…
On rows and backwidth work (pulldowns etc), 2 work sets:
a) 1 heavy, 1 light (or the other way around… 5-8 + 9-12, or vice-versa… Give it a good rest in-between)
Should try to progress on both sets each time.
b) If you have trouble with technique or with retracting your scapulae, try 1 set of 15 and if you get 15, up the weight some and do a another set. If you get less than 15, or maybe 12 or whatever number you chose, then keep the weight for the second set the same. Whenever you can hit 15 on the first set, you up the weight again, basically.
(note: with DC RP and the duo of 2-set methods, you might want to rotate exercises from session to session… Either rotate 2 exercises (i.e. rack chins and pulldowns or so) or up to 3 for advanced trainees.
The other methods, CT’s ramping and the first one I described don’t need a rotation imo.)
[quote]
which was all I could do - pathetic, I can see Hanley laughing at me (;->)
I finished up with 3 sets of 10 reps with 10kg dmbells on rear delt raises- again pathetic![/quote] Do you have a rev-pec deck or one capable of being turned into a reverse version? Those work better than rear raises imo… Or better yet, ditch that crap entirely and replace it with inverted rows. Just set the bar at mid-level in a rack or smith machine, hang onto it and get under it and start pulling yourself up with a wide-ish (i.e. standard bench or so… Though I guess you PL guys go much wider than I do) grip. The scapular retraction seems to happen almost automatically there… No need to touch the bar to your chest imo, but I guess you can do it.[quote]
On Saturday I do my bench as I mentioned above, to give you some pushing vs pulling strength diffs:
Last bench rep max: 120kg * 4reps
Low (30degree) incline bench: 105kg*5or6reps
Flat dumbell presses: 3 sets 8 reps with 45kgbells [/quote] Kroc rows should probably be in the 50’s for 20+, including scap retraction. Uh-oh. [quote]
Chest supported row: 5sets of 8 reps with 50/55kg on it
Dumbell row: 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps with 37.5kg/40kg dumbell (some of the reps on last set are not great)
[/quote] Terrible compared to your bench imo… This needs to come up big time, but focus on the action of retracting your scapulae during each rep and start lighter if necessary… Otherwise you’re just building your arm flexors and lats to some degree. [quote]
Other lifts unrelated:
Last squat 165kg8reps beltless
Last deadlift max from 3 months ago: 220kg6or7 reps, pulled 250kg for a single in Feb
I’m too heavy at the mo and weigh 101kg at 5’9"
[/quote] Nice deadlift! Unfortunately, your bench seems abysmal… Your upper back and lat strength sure seems weak, numbers-wise, I guess conv. comp deadlift technique and volume doesn’t really do much for the upper back, more of a lower back thing…
I made quite the clusterfuck out of that post… Hope I didn’t mis-spell a quote command…
(If this is too confusing, I could probably write out a complete assistance template for your upper body stuff to sum it up or just to give an example of how to put it all together)
Sorry for the hijack btw, Hanley 
C_C, thanks for the tips again. Tried the modified row today (see the journal post which will follow) and liked them a lot. And don’t worry about the hijack, makes no odds to me and there’s good info in it!
Chest’n
DC Shoulder Warm Up:
2.5kg plates - 3 reps
Incline Smith Bench (yes, Smith) - assuming 20kg bar weight:
60kg x8
70kg x8
80kg x8
90kg x8
100kg x8
110kg x3
Incline Dumbbell Bench:
30kg 'bells x10
35kg 'bells x7crashbangwallop
40kg 'bells x8, x7
Hammer Strength Bench:
100kg 2x8, 1x7
DC chest stretch w/ 15kg 'bells
Pendlay Rows (REAL ones):
60kg x10
70kg x10
80kg 3x10
Seated Lateral Raise:
10kg 'bells 3x12
Kipping Chins:
lots of practice runs using Tom’s advice
x10
x10
x17
Barbell Curls:
30kg x5
40kg x5
50kg x5
60kg x6
3OH!3 Curls:
40kg x10
30kg x10
DC bicep stretch
I really like incline smith benches for chest work so I’m gonna push them for the next month or two. I plan on just working building up with sets of 8 'til I can do no more and then jumping 10kg and going for as many as possible. Surprised at the drop off today. The 8th rep w/ 100kg was quite tough and took a bit out of me tho.
Gonna push incline dumbbells hard too and try to work towards rep and weight goals. I’d like to hit 50’s for 8 in the not too distant future. Gonna work on 40’s 2x10 as an immediate goal.
Bit of a scare with 'em today tho… the bench I was on spontaneously decided to lower itself from around 45 degrees to 30 degrees just as I locked out a rep. As you can imagine this was an issue… I felt the dumbbells coming towards my face so pulled the ejector seat and threw both of them off to my right side. They flew about 3 feet thru the air laterally and crashed into a bench beside. It’s SO lucky the gym was empty cos someone coulda got seriously hurt. I wasn’t a happy camper.
The HS bench was ok… my shoulder’s not digging them at the moment but i’ll persevere. Gonna stick with 100kg worth of plates next week.
When Pendlay was describing his rows, he said the function of the lats was not only retraction, but also the act of arching/extending your upper back and the row he described was meant to reflect it. The best way I can describe the way I did them today was a normal row but mid way you arch your upper back/pick up your chest too. I was seriously pumped after it.
Tom gave me some good tips on how to work on my kip at the CF Invitational last week so I tried to put it into practice today. I think the key for me right now is to try to be smooth and do them rhythmically. When I try to rush them I fall to pieces. The second set of 10 felt mega easy and like I was really in the groove, so I decided to go for max reps on the third. I was fairly tired form a long workout at that stage and I reckon I’d have gone over 20 fresh. Right now the immediate goal’s 25.
Gun show to finish off… like the heavy curls followed by the tempo work. Pumps the shit outta my arms and I don’t feel too faggoty cos I’m still lifting decent weight!!
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Chest’n
DC Shoulder Warm Up:
2.5kg plates - 3 reps
Incline Smith Bench (yes, Smith) - assuming 20kg bar weight:
60kg x8
70kg x8
80kg x8
90kg x8
100kg x8
110kg x3
Incline Dumbbell Bench:
30kg 'bells x10
35kg 'bells x7crashbangwallop
40kg 'bells x8, x7
Hammer Strength Bench:
100kg 2x8, 1x7
DC chest stretch w/ 15kg 'bells
Pendlay Rows (REAL ones):
60kg x10
70kg x10
80kg 3x10
Seated Lateral Raise:
10kg 'bells 3x12
Kipping Chins:
lots of practice runs using Tom’s advice
x10
x10
x17
Barbell Curls:
30kg x5
40kg x5
50kg x5
60kg x6
3OH!3 Curls:
40kg x10
30kg x10
DC bicep stretch
I really like incline smith benches for chest work so I’m gonna push them for the next month or two. I plan on just working building up with sets of 8 'til I can do no more and then jumping 10kg and going for as many as possible. Surprised at the drop off today. The 8th rep w/ 100kg was quite tough and took a bit out of me tho.
Gonna push incline dumbbells hard too and try to work towards rep and weight goals. I’d like to hit 50’s for 8 in the not too distant future. Gonna work on 40’s 2x10 as an immediate goal.
Bit of a scare with 'em today tho… the bench I was on spontaneously decided to lower itself from around 45 degrees to 30 degrees just as I locked out a rep. As you can imagine this was an issue… I felt the dumbbells coming towards my face so pulled the ejector seat and threw both of them off to my right side. They flew about 3 feet thru the air laterally and crashed into a bench beside. It’s SO lucky the gym was empty cos someone coulda got seriously hurt. I wasn’t a happy camper.
The HS bench was ok… my shoulder’s not digging them at the moment but i’ll persevere. Gonna stick with 100kg worth of plates next week. [/quote] Trouble in the bottom position/getting the weight out of the bottom on the first rep, or a general shoulder problem? If it’s a real shoulder issue, I’d ditch them or work on setup/technique until you can do them pain-free again… You already have 2 chest hypertrophy exercises in the session, 3 may be a bit much on your shoulders in general… [quote]
When Pendlay was describing his rows, he said the function of the lats was not only retraction, but also the act of arching/extending your upper back and the row he described was meant to reflect it. The best way I can describe the way I did them today was a normal row but mid way you arch your upper back/pick up your chest too. I was seriously pumped after it.
Tom gave me some good tips on how to work on my kip at the CF Invitational last week so I tried to put it into practice today. I think the key for me right now is to try to be smooth and do them rhythmically. When I try to rush them I fall to pieces. The second set of 10 felt mega easy and like I was really in the groove, so I decided to go for max reps on the third. I was fairly tired form a long workout at that stage and I reckon I’d have gone over 20 fresh. Right now the immediate goal’s 25.
Gun show to finish off… like the heavy curls followed by the tempo work. Pumps the shit outta my arms and I don’t feel too faggoty cos I’m still lifting decent weight!! [/quote]
Haha, just don’t get irritate your elbows again… Straight bar curls can do that, too.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
C_C, thanks for the tips again. Tried the modified row today (see the journal post which will follow) and liked them a lot. And don’t worry about the hijack, makes no odds to me and there’s good info in it![/quote]
Cool beans.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Trouble in the bottom position/getting the weight out of the bottom on the first rep, or a general shoulder problem? [/quote]
I have problems with the first rep. I put 5lb plates under the levers and that makes it a bit easier.
Is there another way or do i just add a bit more plates?
C_C - The problem’s sorta all over, just the general set up doesn’t feel right on it. Like I can’t press with my elbows too far out for some reason or else it gets sore. Just gonna have to play around with body position on the bench and see what happens I suppose!!
And I like my elbows and arms healthy… gonna try keep them that way for the foreseeable future at least!!
[quote]Clown Face wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Trouble in the bottom position/getting the weight out of the bottom on the first rep, or a general shoulder problem?
I have problems with the first rep. I put 5lb plates under the levers and that makes it a bit easier.
Is there another way or do i just add a bit more plates?[/quote]
I just throw a couple of plates under the stands to raise it up a bit too.
How many do you put under it?
I put 1 plate under each. But last time I remember the first rep being a lot harder than the rest.
I might try 2 next time…so long as the levers don’t hit the plates on the following reps I suppose it doesn’t matter.
[quote]Clown Face wrote:
How many do you put under it?
I put 1 plate under each. But last time I remember the first rep being a lot harder than the rest.
I might try 2 next time…so long as the levers don’t hit the plates on the following reps I suppose it doesn’t matter.
[/quote]
I used to use one, but prefer two now. Not because of my shoulder even, just feels like a better place to start. I go pretty much all the way down (as if the handles were a bar they’d hit my chest) and it doesn’t whack the plates.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dheeel,
Hey mate,
I would usually follow the bench work with 3-5 sets of 5 reps on close grip 2board presses or incline bench presses, followed by 3 sets of 8-10 reps of either flat of floor dumbell presses.
I would then do 5 sets of 8-10 reps of tbar or chest supported rows with a focus on retracting the scaps before pulling the weight up I’d retract them while you pull the weight up, actually, rather than before… Otherwise it’s kind of like your scapular retractors are doing a static hold while the rear delts and lats lift the weight. While they’re doing a hold when benching, static holds as such aren’t a great way to improve strength (and size) imo… Otherwise your scapular musculature would get stronger from benching. Got to have repetitive movement under load there. You’re also doing quite a bit of volume that day… Are you doing all sets at the same weight on your assistance work? What’s the entire split like? Regular 5/3/1 3 times a week with 4 different workouts?. I would then do 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps of either face pulls, rear delt raises or halbert raises.
If you’ve got any tips or advice I would love to hear them mate. I personally think my setup needs work to be consistent and a lot of that is based on fixing my scap strength so I can hold my upperback tight throughout the entire bench set. I will definitely take on board your tips to Hanley too.
Thanks
I’ll see if I can give you any more advice once you’ve posted the rest of your routine and perhaps your numbers on back work vs. pressing (free-weight, I can’t compare the machine stuff).
Thanks for the advice above mate.
I basically do the 5/3/1 on Squat, deadlift, bench and MP.
On Monday I’ll squat first doing 5/3/1 and deadlift second doing the just 5/3/1 reps I need for that on the day. The reason I do this is because my squat is weak relative to my deadlift and I’m focussing on that at the moment. What seems to be the issue?
On Wednesday I’ll the 5/3/1 for Military press. I did 77.5kg * 6 reps today with the bar touching the chest on each rep Considering that you go all the way down, I think that’s in good relation with your bench, though it’s not overly strong as such… Perhaps your triceps suck as well as your back, hence the low bench and upper body pushing numbers in general?
I’m not much of a fan of going down to the chest on overhead work btw… In the chest to chin range you’re at a big lever disadvantage and I noticed that working that particular part of ROM causes my shoulder health to degrade… Limiting the weight you lift due to that part of your ROM is not that great for actual shoulder strength, either. Also, the upper third of the lift is mostly tricep… Gotta think about what you want to achieve with the lift. Weak part of ROM = too little weight during shoulder part of ROM, also due to the tricep part… Plus not everyone’s structure tolerates the lockout part well (again shoulder health/impingement issues).
If you feel like experimenting a little, limit your overhead pressing to chin up to the end of the second third of the movement or so, the usual explosive positive and controlled negative. Might be even better to press off the pins, you may be weaker at first, but this quickly allows you to improve your mid-range strength on the bench and perhaps even off-the-chest strength to some degree.
Also, add some heavy tricep press (at least one per week) and maybe dead stop extensions (lying on the bench or on the floor, you lower the weight behind your head and don’t lock out with forearms pointed straight up either). Maybe I missed the tricep part of your routine or you forgot to mention it? There can be no big bench without very strong triceps…
My favs presses here would be board CGP (elbows tucked at the bottom, you can flare them out as you go up… Grip as wide as necessary, none of that 4-6 inch crap) and CGP off the pins, not as high as to make it a lockout exercise, maybe mid-way up or so instead or a tad lower. You just want to take the shoulders out of it to the best of your ability.
If you have a smith machine with no counterweights or where you can disable the counterweights, you can do In-Human Presses or Wide-SRGB with a thumb and index finger grip as well… Those are very good tricep movements and they allow you to really make it easy on the shoulders and focus on the tris and lats because you can press towards your feet (against the smith) as well as up. Standard PL setup as far as scapulae etc goes.
Furthermore, depending somewhat on your bench style (particularly if you use a closer grip like I do), Pinwheel curls or some such for the brachialis area may pay off quite a bit in added power transfer, bar-path-stability and elbow health…
As off-the-chest assistance work, I’d go with pin presses set up so that you’re pressing from just off the chest. DB work is ok too, alternate that maybe…
Heavy rear delt work… Well, elbows out a little on rows + scapular retraction motion should take care of that, plus inverted rows or so… I don’t think you’ll need much direct work there, though the rev. pec deck can work pretty well if additional work is required.
. Assistance work is 3 sets of 10 reps on 1 arm press where I hit 30kg for 3 sets of 10, last couple of reps on the last set involved a bit of a lean to the side! I followed that with 5 sets on lat pulldowns (focus on retracting the scap on each before pulling), 1040kg, 1050kg, 860kg, 665kg, 5*70kg Ok, you did ramp up, but you wasted a ton of energy on those early sets of 10 and 8… Were your rest-periods very short?
Try something like
35x8
50x3
60xAMAP (doesn’t have to be to failure, can stay a rep shy or so… 5-8 reps here, preferably)
70xAMAP (4-6 reps? )
75xAMAP (3-8, you can get a funny neural rebound where you suddenly get more reps than on the previous set, at least it happens to me a lot… Not going to failure on the earlier sets seems to help with that)
or so, if you want…
Alternatives would be…
35x8
45x3
55xDC-style REST PAUSE (try for 15-30 total reps)
Doing them this light because that way you’ll have an easier time making your lats do the work, and you can go up in weight the following sessions… Alternatively 15-20RP, but I’d stick to 15-30.
Another one (CT style, sort of… All positives are done explosively and with controlled, but not slow, negatives… Actually, that’s done in any event, whether you use this form of ramping or not)
30 or 35 x 10-15 (the warm-up set)
45 x 1
50 x 1 (feel sets, I think they’re called… Treat them sort of like DE work)
55 x 3 (first work set… I used 80Kg as your hypothetical max here, you start your work sets at 70% of 1RM)
60 x 3 (I’m going with triples in the example, but fours or can work too… The fewer reps you do, the smaller the weight jumps should be imo)
65 x 3
70 x 3
75 x 3 (keep going after this and stop once you can’t get 3 reps or when you feel that you just barely
(80 x 2-3?) got that third rep… Number of sets varies from session to session due to that… CT would probably use some potentiation/CNS wake-up exercise prior to this, but I don’t know enough about that stuff yet to be giving out any examples. Gotta rely on your explosive lifting, feel sets and general low reps for that I guess.)
Rest periods on this last one are fairly short (the less reps, the less rest needed), but don’t make them so short that your strength suffers.
Another way…
On rows and backwidth work (pulldowns etc), 2 work sets:
a) 1 heavy, 1 light (or the other way around… 5-8 + 9-12, or vice-versa… Give it a good rest in-between)
Should try to progress on both sets each time.
b) If you have trouble with technique or with retracting your scapulae, try 1 set of 15 and if you get 15, up the weight some and do a another set. If you get less than 15, or maybe 12 or whatever number you chose, then keep the weight for the second set the same. Whenever you can hit 15 on the first set, you up the weight again, basically.
(note: with DC RP and the duo of 2-set methods, you might want to rotate exercises from session to session… Either rotate 2 exercises (i.e. rack chins and pulldowns or so) or up to 3 for advanced trainees.
The other methods, CT’s ramping and the first one I described don’t need a rotation imo.)
which was all I could do - pathetic, I can see Hanley laughing at me (;->)
I finished up with 3 sets of 10 reps with 10kg dmbells on rear delt raises- again pathetic! Do you have a rev-pec deck or one capable of being turned into a reverse version? Those work better than rear raises imo… Or better yet, ditch that crap entirely and replace it with inverted rows. Just set the bar at mid-level in a rack or smith machine, hang onto it and get under it and start pulling yourself up with a wide-ish (i.e. standard bench or so… Though I guess you PL guys go much wider than I do) grip. The scapular retraction seems to happen almost automatically there… No need to touch the bar to your chest imo, but I guess you can do it.
On Saturday I do my bench as I mentioned above, to give you some pushing vs pulling strength diffs:
Last bench rep max: 120kg * 4reps
Low (30degree) incline bench: 105kg*5or6reps
Flat dumbell presses: 3 sets 8 reps with 45kgbells Kroc rows should probably be in the 50’s for 20+, including scap retraction. Uh-oh.
Chest supported row: 5sets of 8 reps with 50/55kg on it
Dumbell row: 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps with 37.5kg/40kg dumbell (some of the reps on last set are not great)
Terrible compared to your bench imo… This needs to come up big time, but focus on the action of retracting your scapulae during each rep and start lighter if necessary… Otherwise you’re just building your arm flexors and lats to some degree.
Other lifts unrelated:
Last squat 165kg8reps beltless
Last deadlift max from 3 months ago: 220kg6or7 reps, pulled 250kg for a single in Feb
I’m too heavy at the mo and weigh 101kg at 5’9"
Nice deadlift! Unfortunately, your bench seems abysmal… Your upper back and lat strength sure seems weak, numbers-wise, I guess conv. comp deadlift technique and volume doesn’t really do much for the upper back, more of a lower back thing…
Appreciate any feedback on building that rowing and scap retractor strength mate would be great - many thanks
I made quite the clusterfuck out of that post… Hope I didn’t mis-spell a quote command…
(If this is too confusing, I could probably write out a complete assistance template for your upper body stuff to sum it up or just to give an example of how to put it all together)
Sorry for the hijack btw, Hanley [/quote]
CC - Many thanks for all the advice and you’re right, my upper back strength is pathetic. When I get a chance I will go through all the advice here in detail and probably PM you on a few things.
Thanks again mate
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Clown Face wrote:
How many do you put under it?
I put 1 plate under each. But last time I remember the first rep being a lot harder than the rest.
I might try 2 next time…so long as the levers don’t hit the plates on the following reps I suppose it doesn’t matter.
I used to use one, but prefer two now. Not because of my shoulder even, just feels like a better place to start. I go pretty much all the way down (as if the handles were a bar they’d hit my chest) and it doesn’t whack the plates.
[/quote]
I myself don’t have any HS pressing equipment available, but:
In-Human (DC vet) is a very strong presser (not just on the machines)
Now, I don’t think there’s a vid of him doing iso-lateral flat benches, but check these anyway:
inhuman - hammer shoulder press - YouTube ← Hammer overhead press, 6 plates a side
HammerIncline - YouTube ← incline, 7 pps, did it at the end of his DC workout actually as he was waiting for the guy who filmed it, I think. That means that this was done after
-Chest, Delts, Tris, Backwdith, Backthickness
So yeah.
HammerInclinewith8plates - YouTube ← Incline with 8 pps, can do more but did it right after the set in the previous vid, also at the end of the session.
Now, he is a strong bencher… Was doing 500x2 raw which got him his name in his gym, and that was like 15-20 years ago or so?.. You can imagine that he’s made quite a bit of progress since then, though he stopped flat benching as we don’t like doing that much in DC.
Anyway, point being: His ROM. He emphasizes delts and tris but leaves the weak (and imo more dangerous) lower part out… Goes down under control until his upper arms are parallel to the floor or so and then pushes back up as forcefully as he can.
Might be worth a try to adapt that kind of technique…
[quote]dheeel wrote:
CC - Many thanks for all the advice and you’re right, my upper back strength is pathetic. When I get a chance I will go through all the advice here in detail and probably PM you on a few things.
Thanks again mate[/quote]
No problem.
I’m not sure if a pm from you would ever reach me, though…
My pm’s had been de-activated for a while and my hub locked. Seems to be back to normal, but just in case, post questions in my training thread in the BB section or so.
Training for the sake of training…
Power Cleans:
50kg x3
70kg x2
80kg x1
90kg x1
100kg x1
110kg x3 - PR
Front Squats:
60kg x3
80kg x3
100kg x3
115kg x3
130kg 3x3
Reverse Hypers:
20kg 3x12
Training just so I wouldn’t feel bad for skipping out of it… Absolutely nothing of note other than the power cleans, and even they were fugly.
Another Fun Workout…
Power Snatches:
40kg x3
50kg x2
60kg 2x2
65kg x1
70kg x1
75kg x0 -
Power Jerks:
60kg x3
80kg x2
90kg x2
100kg x2
105kg x0
105kg x1
110kg x1
115kg 2x0 - grrr!!
Close Grip Bench:
60kg x5
80kg x3
100kg x3
110kg x3
120kg x3
130kg x1
135kg x1
140kg x1 - PR
Rolling Dumbbell Extenstions:
15kg 'bells 4x12
Simulated Stone Lifts (Diesel Crew style):
70kg 4x3
CrossFit September Invitational Workout 2 - 75kg clean and jerks, as many reps as possible in 3 minutes:
22 reps
Inverted Rows w/ pause @ top:
3x6
Sweet little workout today… The snatches weren’t great at all to be honest. I’ve never really been good at the exercise. My cleans came on fairly quickly with practice so I’ll keep workin on em and hope they come up too.
The power jerks are just fun. Such a snappy fluid movement when you get it right. I deffo have the potential to go over 120kg very soon with these once I make a few tweaks. I think the main issues I have are that sometimes I push the bar out in front a bit instead of straight up, my elbows are “soft” at the top so I’m not locking out solidly, and supporting the weight over head feels pretty weight, and again I’m soft/not locked in.
The CGBP’s were sweet today… my chest was pretty fatigued still from all the pec work during the week and could feel it being pulled at all the way thru. My triceps seemed to be firing really well today. Could feel them twitching like mad all thru the reps. Was considering 130 x3 but I felt too good not to go for an all time single PR with them so held a bit back. Hit 135 a bit shakily, but basd on the 130 that preceeded it I knew 140 should go… and it did!!
Rolling extenstions in lieu of any board work today to give my everything a bit of a break coming off the comp at the weekend. Nice movement just go get everything stretched out and the blood flowing.
The simulated atlas stone lift is great fun. Serious exercise for erector strength + back thickness as well, which is probably my number one weak point at this stage.
Decided I’d do the CF workout at the end of my session so no one could give out about me being fresh… i think i was sufficiently tired at that stage Bit disappointed I didn’t get some more reps in. Just watched the vid of it and cut it about 8 seconds short so I woulda had time for another one. I knew I’d go over 20, and was sorta thinking 25 might happen. I’ll come back to it in a few weeks and try again.
The inverted rows worked well with the pause. The only real reason I’m doing em is to keep my shoulders healthy so I’m not too worried about trying to load them or anything.
Now… to go eat the sh!t outta some BBQ while my CF vid uploads!!
Clean ad jerks - 75kg x22 reps in < 3 minutes - Clean and Jerks: 75kg x22 - as many reps as possible in less than 3 minutes - YouTube
Fun in the gym… (seems to be all I do thse days!!)
Kipping Pull Ups:
2x10
1x21 - PR
One Arm Dumbbell Rows w/ scap retraction:
30kg 'bells 3x12
Machine Preacher Curls:
40 x8
50 x8
60 x8
70 x13-5-4rp - could be a PR
75% Fran - 16/11/9:
45kg thrusters and bodyweight pull ups - 2 minutes 41 seconds - 9 second PR
Was gonna do a long distance cardio workout tonight… but decided against it for a couple of reasons;
The kipping pull ups are progressing well. I’m gradually getting better at them all the time. I just need to make sure I’m hitting full extension with my elbows on them now consistently so may start video’n.
The scap rows were good again… starting to really feel them. Hoping they’ll have a decent enough impact on all round upper back strength and shoulder health.
The curls were up quite a bit today as well… not sure what’s driving that, I assume it’s the added training frequency.
75% Fran PR = Happy James!! I was gunning for 2.30 and think I started my last set of thrusters at 2 minutes so disappointed I didn’t get in. REALLY p!ssed off that I had to go 4-1-1 on the last set of pull ups. I’d gone straight thru everything else!!! I’d say if I’d have hit 6 in one go I woulda been around 2.33-2.35.
Based off a 2.41 75%'er, 100% should come in around 3.34 which is obviously pie in the sky stuff cos there’s no way it translates like that, but the fact it’s falling is encouraging. I’ve said I’d take a run at full Fran when I get 2.30 on the 75%'er, but I reckon I’ll hold off until late November (the end of my 6 month time limit) to test regardless because I reckon I’ve realistically got one shot of putting up a really good time before I toast my recovery so I’m gonna lay it all on the line then!!
Might try an 82-85% Fran at some stage over the next 10-14 days as well, and keep practicing my kips and thrusters.