Revolt Towards our Proposed Health Care

[quote]denv23 wrote:
The main reason healthcare is so expensive is because of the policy mandates that fed and state govts put on them.

Let insurance companies write whatever policies they want, to whoever they want, in any and all states they want to is the answer. It opens up competition, drives down costs, and gives the public unlimited choice.

For those who don’t know or don’t care to know, this ^ is something insurance companies cannot currently do thanks to govt intervention. Now you know.

I should be able to buy a policy that covers anything I want, and nothing that I don’t, from any carrier I choose. Explain to me why the govt wont let me have that option?[/quote]

I believe this would end up in very expensive, very shitty plans for 90 percent of the population.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
MaximusB wrote:

Why isn’t health care a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s health? YOu have to draw a line somewhere no?

Some aspects are, but a great deal of medical advancement is generated through competition for patents, as an example, and the profit motive serves us quite well in this regard.

This isn’t to suggest the arrangement is perfect - but we need to be careful while reforming not to slay the Golden Goose.

[/quote]

I agree.

The pharmaceutical industry in this state is gigantic… they bring in A LOT of money and they, quite honestly, find a lot of cures.

Hence why I don’t like the idea of “universal” healthcare. However, merely having a public option would not influence this.

The stragety is for a public option to lead to single payer. It’s not even debateable. So, look folks, if we’re even going to discuss this, how about we shine some light on the real issue?

I mean, how many times do the videos need to be posted? They are counting on the public option to devour the private/semi-private market, leading us to single payer. So let’s argue what’s really happening here. That is, the laying of tracks for the single payer express.

I posted this in my thread, but the AARP has said they do not endorse this bill. I believe it is because of what push quoted. Another nail in the coffin.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Why isn’t health care a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s health? YOu have to draw a line somewhere no?[/quote]

Why isnt the food industry not a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s food? You have to draw a line somewhere no?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
pushharder wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Why isn’t health care a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s health? YOu have to draw a line somewhere no?

By that line of thinking the government should be providing all of our food, clothing and housing. After all even those needs are more essential than health care.

Non-profit does not equal “government.” [/quote]

No, it just equals less effectiveness.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
denv23 wrote:
The main reason healthcare is so expensive is because of the policy mandates that fed and state govts put on them.

Let insurance companies write whatever policies they want, to whoever they want, in any and all states they want to is the answer. It opens up competition, drives down costs, and gives the public unlimited choice.

For those who don’t know or don’t care to know, this ^ is something insurance companies cannot currently do thanks to govt intervention. Now you know.

I should be able to buy a policy that covers anything I want, and nothing that I don’t, from any carrier I choose. Explain to me why the govt wont let me have that option?

I believe this would end up in very expensive, very shitty plans for 90 percent of the population.[/quote]

Yes and your beliefs are all you have when it comes to that.

The Swiss have mandatory but no state insurance and yet pay one third less than the US per capita with far better results.

Of course they do better than the US which basically already has nationalized health care and just wont admit it. Not surprisingly Switzerland is one of the few countries left that actually has a Pharma industry that develops new products whereas in England people will sonn die from tooth decay.

Hiya, I’m not trying to be purely argumentative, but i am preplexed how anyone could oppose the nationalisation of healthcare so everyone is treated, in a system where a failry substanial portion of the population doesn’t have access to the care they’d need if they get sick.

I am English, I live in Britain (obviously) where we have the NHS, I have been reading some of the disturbing campaign material circulated in America currently, specifically about heart disease and cancer treatment, and it’s just lies. None of this ‘information’ about the issue with age vs treatment is true.

My grandfather was 90 when he developed bowel cancer, he had an op to remove part of his bowel within 10days and now at 98 he still receives monthly visits to his home to check on his wellbeing. I’m not going to say there aren’t problems with the (NHS) model, but anyone that is sick is given a chance. Nobody is intentionally left behind.

My cousin works in a state-of-the-art bio-chemistry lab in a hospital in the North of England - they have a £50million grant for this year alone developing drugs for use against heart disease - all funded by the NHS.

My mother pays for private health insurance, like many other people who wish to do so, this basically means that rather than waiting to see a consultant afer any diagnosis she can seek swifter private help. The longest i’ve ever waited for a consulation was on a knee injury I had - it took almost two weeks. Here in Wales, where I live, we get publically funded prescriptions, so those who are vulnerable, especially the elderly never have to worry about being able to afford treatment.

The issue of dentistry is a little bit different here. Put simpley people don’t (generally) associate the NHS or healthcare with the specific nature of dental care (hence the appalling state of our nations teeth). There are plenty of dentists if you’re willing to pay for treatment, just a shortage of those seeking free care.

The case of one idiotic Scouser (that’s someone from Liverpool) using superglue to fix his own crown isn’t a very balanced example, he could have paid for someone to fix that crown, but he wanted to act the victim and get himself on some daytime TV shows (but not cos he is a Scouser, before anyone from liverpool goes and gets upset)

[quote]Wrel wrote:
Hiya, I’m not trying to be purely argumentative, but i am preplexed how anyone could oppose the nationalisation of healthcare so everyone is treated, in a system where a failry substanial portion of the population doesn’t have access to the care they’d need if they get sick.
[/quote]

You are “perplexed” how anyone could have a visceral reaction if he is to hand over the responsibility for his and his families health to the people who brought us the USPS, Amtrak and the Walter Reid hospital?

Really?

The very same people who have run Medicare, Medicaid and the Social Security System into the ground?

What could possibly go wrong?

[quote]Wrel wrote:
Hiya, I’m not trying to be purely argumentative, but i am preplexed how anyone could oppose the nationalisation of healthcare so everyone is treated, in a system where a failry substanial portion of the population doesn’t have access to the care they’d need if they get sick.

I am English, I live in Britain (obviously) where we have the NHS, I have been reading some of the disturbing campaign material circulated in America currently, specifically about heart disease and cancer treatment, and it’s just lies. None of this ‘information’ about the issue with age vs treatment is true.

My grandfather was 90 when he developed bowel cancer, he had an op to remove part of his bowel within 10days and now at 98 he still receives monthly visits to his home to check on his wellbeing. I’m not going to say there aren’t problems with the (NHS) model, but anyone that is sick is given a chance. Nobody is intentionally left behind.

My cousin works in a state-of-the-art bio-chemistry lab in a hospital in the North of England - they have a �£50million grant for this year alone developing drugs for use against heart disease - all funded by the NHS.

My mother pays for private health insurance, like many other people who wish to do so, this basically means that rather than waiting to see a consultant afer any diagnosis she can seek swifter private help. The longest i’ve ever waited for a consulation was on a knee injury I had - it took almost two weeks. Here in Wales, where I live, we get publically funded prescriptions, so those who are vulnerable, especially the elderly never have to worry about being able to afford treatment.

The issue of dentistry is a little bit different here. Put simpley people don’t (generally) associate the NHS or healthcare with the specific nature of dental care (hence the appalling state of our nations teeth). There are plenty of dentists if you’re willing to pay for treatment, just a shortage of those seeking free care.

The case of one idiotic Scouser (that’s someone from Liverpool) using superglue to fix his own crown isn’t a very balanced example, he could have paid for someone to fix that crown, but he wanted to act the victim and get himself on some daytime TV shows (but not cos he is a Scouser, before anyone from liverpool goes and gets upset) [/quote]

There are actually only a couple percent of Americans without access to health care coverage. So I don’t know where that â??substantial portionâ?? comes from.

As for innovationâ?¦ you are really going to compare Briton to the US?

â??The United States is a leader in medical innovation. In 2004, the health care industry spent three times as much as Europe per capita on biomedical research.[10] Companies provide medical products such as pharmaceuticals and medical devices. In 2006, the United States accounted for three quarters of the worldâ??s biotechnology revenues and 82% of world R&D spending in biotechnology. [9][7]. The amount of financing by private industry has increased 102% from 1994 to 2003.[19] Governmental research institutes such as the National Institutes of Health are key in funding basic research.

The top five U.S. hospitals carry out more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other country. Between 1975 and 2008, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In 29 of the 34 years between 1975 and 2008, a scientist living in the U.S. either won or shared in the prize.â??
Why not thank or non-socialist medical market for your health? We do more for the science of medicine than all of Europe.

My grandfather recently received a similar surgery and similar treatment, but he never sacrificed any freedom.

From WSJ:

“Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare”

With a projected $1.8 trillion deficit for 2009, several trillions more in deficits projected over the next decade, and with both Medicare and Social Security entitlement spending about to ratchet up several notches over the next 15 years as Baby Boomers become eligible for both, we are rapidly running out of other people’s money. These deficits are simply not sustainable. They are either going to result in unprecedented new taxes and inflation, or they will bankrupt us.

While we clearly need health-care reform, the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite directionâ??toward less government control and more individual empowerment.

Here are eight reforms that would greatly lower the cost of health care for everyone:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
pushharder wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Why isn’t health care a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s health? YOu have to draw a line somewhere no?

By that line of thinking the government should be providing all of our food, clothing and housing. After all even those needs are more essential than health care.

Non-profit does not equal “government.” [/quote]

Our government gives famers our money , in a sense they have socialized our food

“My grandfather recently received a similar surgery and similar treatment, but he never sacrificed any freedom”

I’m sorry, what part of my grandfathers freedom did he sacrifice to recieve this care? We pay tax, much like everyone else (Wesley Snipes aside), I still am not clear what the objection to a public run system is. Yes, I appreaciate that it’s not a perfect system but what is? I promised myself I wasn’t goingto quote “Sicko”, or even reference it, but in that program (I do not say documentary) a chap has to decide which one of his two fingers he can have reattached cos he can’t afford both. Does this seem right? Surely society is about raising people up so people don’t have decide if they wanna keep the bird-finger or there nose picking finger?!?!

As for the rest of this:

" …In 2004, the health care industry spent three times as much as Europe per capita on biomedical research.[10] Companies provide medical products such as pharmaceuticals and medical devices. In 2006, the United States accounted for three quarters of the world’s biotechnology revenues and 82% of world R&D spending in biotechnology. [9][7]. The amount of financing by private industry has increased 102% from 1994 to 2003.[19] Governmental research institutes such as the National Institutes of Health are key in funding basic research.

The top five U.S. hospitals carry out more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other country. Between 1975 and 2008, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In 29 of the 34 years between 1975 and 2008, a scientist living in the U.S. either won or shared in the prize.â??

"

Anyone can make up or find statistics to support an argument, it’s just like the police force duking statistics to reflect political will, it’s bullshit.

You’ve quoted specific fields of medicine, ie biotechnology, to support your overall opinion.

Just out of interest - do you actually know the nationalities of those scientists who won Nobel peace prizes?

This one I love the best “Why not thank or non-socialist medical market for your health? We do more for the science of medicine than all of Europe”

Well, why not thank the Arabs for creating written language, the Chinesse for inventing medicine and an Aussie for discovering penicilin while we’re at!

What does this mean "The top five U.S. hospitals carry out more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other country. " Clinical trials, you say … …

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
pushharder wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Why isn’t health care a non-profit entity? I mean, I am all for capitalism, but come on, people’s health? YOu have to draw a line somewhere no?

By that line of thinking the government should be providing all of our food, clothing and housing. After all even those needs are more essential than health care.

Non-profit does not equal “government.”

Our government gives famers our money , in a sense they have socialized our food[/quote]

That’s so true.

[quote]Wrel wrote:
“My grandfather recently received a similar surgery and similar treatment, but he never sacrificed any freedom”

I’m sorry, what part of my grandfathers freedom did he sacrifice to recieve this care? We pay tax, much like everyone else (Wesley Snipes aside), I still am not clear what the objection to a public run system is. Yes, I appreaciate that it’s not a perfect system but what is? I promised myself I wasn’t goingto quote “Sicko”, or even reference it, but in that program (I do not say documentary) a chap has to decide which one of his two fingers he can have reattached cos he can’t afford both. Does this seem right? Surely society is about raising people up so people don’t have decide if they wanna keep the bird-finger or there nose picking finger?!?!

[/quote]
You and I obviously have a different definitions of rights. I believe only in negative rights as per the US constitution. The idea of positive rights directly contradicts negative rights in practice.

Your reference to paying taxes is ridiculous. Yes, we pay taxes, that doesn’t mean I can’t have objections to more taxes. That’s like saying there is no difference between someone stealing your tv and stealing your tv in addition to jewelry.

Nationalities aren’t being discussed as of yet. The systems that allowed for the best innovation is. And country of origin has exactly 0 to do with that. Why deflect the statistics rather than address them. Our private medical companies far outspend your government system per capita in R and D. Period.

Because I wasn’t making unsubstantiated claims about these things. Oh, and I’m allergic to penicillin.

Yes, a key element in R and D.

[quote]Wrel wrote:
“My grandfather recently received a similar surgery and similar treatment, but he never sacrificed any freedom”

I’m sorry, what part of my grandfathers freedom did he sacrifice to recieve this care? We pay tax, much like everyone else (Wesley Snipes aside), I still am not clear what the objection to a public run system is. Yes, I appreaciate that it’s not a perfect system but what is? I promised myself I wasn’t goingto quote “Sicko”, or even reference it, but in that program (I do not say documentary) a chap has to decide which one of his two fingers he can have reattached cos he can’t afford both. Does this seem right? Surely society is about raising people up so people don’t have decide if they wanna keep the bird-finger or there nose picking finger?!?!

As for the rest of this:

" …In 2004, the health care industry spent three times as much as Europe per capita on biomedical research.[10] Companies provide medical products such as pharmaceuticals and medical devices. In 2006, the United States accounted for three quarters of the world’s biotechnology revenues and 82% of world R&D spending in biotechnology. [9][7]. The amount of financing by private industry has increased 102% from 1994 to 2003.[19] Governmental research institutes such as the National Institutes of Health are key in funding basic research.

The top five U.S. hospitals carry out more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other country. Between 1975 and 2008, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In 29 of the 34 years between 1975 and 2008, a scientist living in the U.S. either won or shared in the prize.�¢??

"

Anyone can make up or find statistics to support an argument, it’s just like the police force duking statistics to reflect political will, it’s bullshit.

You’ve quoted specific fields of medicine, ie biotechnology, to support your overall opinion.

Just out of interest - do you actually know the nationalities of those scientists who won Nobel peace prizes?

This one I love the best “Why not thank or non-socialist medical market for your health? We do more for the science of medicine than all of Europe”

Well, why not thank the Arabs for creating written language, the Chinesse for inventing medicine and an Aussie for discovering penicilin while we’re at!

What does this mean "The top five U.S. hospitals carry out more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other country. " Clinical trials, you say … …

[/quote]

You grandfather sacrificed a lot of freedom in his care. Was he allowed to pick his doctor? His hospital? Could he go to a different NHS trust? Did he get to pick what kind of surgery he had? What brand of medical equipment going into his knee?

You should be thanking the U.S. for your health care. The system in the US pays for the development of all these new drugs you enjoy(or perhaps not on the NHS). If the US switches over to an NHS style healthcare system the market for new drugs will drastically shrink. Now the plan the president is proposing isn’t an NHS sytem, its just a step in the enevitable step.

I live in california but I am english, and go back to England alot to see family. I don’t blame you for your views, because in England the government does everything; it would be impossible for you to see any other option.

And theres actually only about 10 million americans without access to health insurance, or 97% of the population has it.