Revisiting the Alleged Leak

Heh. Here’s a nice link to a Joe Wilson speech from prior to Novak’s column coming out, or anyone “exposing” his non-covert-operative wife [There is audio if you follow the link below] - I think this speaks nicely to the point that any undercover operative was “outed,” purposefully or not:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/10/before-novak-joe-wilson-speech-that.html

EXCERPT:

In this speech, Ambassador Joseph Wilson:

  • describes himself as the investigator sent to Niger by the government
  • details the African trip as only he is capable of
  • says the government sent him there and not the CIA (a lie: http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf )
  • says there was nothing to the uranium story (a lie: http://www.butlerreview.org.uk/news/launchstatement.pdf )
  • describes the US as “occupiers” of Iraq (a shocking statement at the time)
  • describes a conspiracy to help Israel dominate the Palestinians
  • calls the Administration warmongers and a–holes
  • says Bush is in office for sex

“As I used to say when I was doing my interviews before the war, the issue of weapons of mass destruction is primordial, it is important.”

On June 14, 2003, three months after the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Joe Wilson gave a talk to the Leftist organization, “Education for Peace in Iraq Center”. ( http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=68&showlogin=1 )

The American Thinker wrote about this talk previously ( http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 )noting that Joseph Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame were both listed on the program.

Joe Wilson and wife Valerie Plame are listed on the “Education for Peace” website. Here are segments from the talk Joe Wilson gave on June 14, 2003 ( http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 ) just three months since the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom:

[i]"Let me just start out by saying, as a preface to what I really want to talk about, to those of you who are going out and lobbying tomorrow, I just want to assure you that American ambassador who has been cited in reports in the New York Times and in the Washington Post, and now in the Guardian over in London, who actually went over to Niger on behalf of the government-not of the CIA but of the government-and came back in February of 2002 and told the government that there was nothing to this story, later called the government after the British white paper was published and said you all need to do some fact-checking and make sure the Brits aren't using bad information in the publication of the white paper, and who called both the CIA and the State Department after the President's State of the Union and said to them you need to worry about the political manipulation of intelligence if, in fact, the President is talking about Niger when he mentions Africa.

That person was told by the State Department that, well, you know, there's four countries that export uranium. That person had served in three of those countries, so he knew a little bit about what he was talking about when he said you really need to worry about this. But I can assure you that that retired American ambassador to Africa, as Nick Kristof called him in his article, is also pissed off, and has every intention of ensuring that this story has legs.

And I think it does have legs. It may not have legs over the next two or three months, but when you see American casualties moving from one to five or to ten per day, and you see Tony Blair's government fall because in the U.K. it is a big story, there will be some ramifications, I think, here in the United States, so I hope that you will do everything you can to keep the pressure on. Because it is absolutely bogus for us to have gone to war the way we did. [/i]

Wilson continues:

[i]...As I used to say when I was doing my interviews before the war, the issue of weapons of mass destruction is primortive (primordial?), it is important...(at 3:35)

...Going from 1441 to an invasion, conquest and occupation war was not the right thing to do...

... I remain on the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that that indicates that Saddam's regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons...(at 7:50)

...I remember this guys saying these warmongers,... As the sun was coming up I had my flag out there because I am not going to let these a--holes claim that they are more patriotic than I am!...(at 13:20)

...even our military officers were absolutely dismayed at the slaughter we were inflicting on those poorly trained on the way to Baghdad...(at 19:50)

...If you take out some of these countries that are, some of these governments that are antagonistic to Israel, then you provide the Israeli Government with greater wherewithal to impose its terms and conditions on the Palestinian people...(at 20:16)

...By next year,...The pressure here in the United States will begin to build, because by that time Ariel Sharon will have made life so miserable for the Palestinians that they will cross over to Jordan or you will just see a lot of bloodshed. You will see Hamas doing things every day and you will see Israeli gunships in there...(at 27:50)

...As they say in France, people get into politics for money, power and sex. And, most of the rest of the world is the same thing. And maybe here in the states its the same thing, the sex part for Mr. Bush.(at 37:35)

...Wasn't life simpler when all our president lied about was his sex life? (at 37:45)[/i]

The entire speech is 40:37 minutes long. You can be listen to the speech HERE: http://next.epic-usa.org/epicdev2/_media/2003forumaudio/28-lecture-wilson-32.m3u

Also, from the website: He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has four children. (via American Thinker: http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 )

It is not shocking that this is not the only place where Joe Wilson and Volerie Plame are listed together. Here is their entry in the “Who’s Who in America” from 2002. [Note: PDF of entry available if you follow initial link]

On August 5, 2005 Kevin Aylward from Wizbang ( http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006664.php ) found this out about Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson (via Instapundit: Instapundit ):

Melvin Schuetz from Baylor’s Moody Library forwarded Joseph Wilson’s bio from the 2003 edition of Who’s Who in America [Volume 2 (L-Z)]. He notes:

[i]Wilson's entry carries over about 5 lines to the next column, which is why it cuts off in mid-sentence at the end. The relevant text is "m. Valerie Elise Plame, Apr. 3, 1998," which not only appears in the 2003 edition, but ALL editions from 1999-2005![/i]

So, via Who’s Who, the name “Valerie Plame” has been associated publicly with Joe Wilson since the Clinton era - nice secret… ***

Kevin Aylward continues:

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006664.php

[i]I'm over generalizing here, but it seem like there wasn't an outing of an agent until two non-secret bits of information were combined.Joseph Wilson's wife's maiden name, most would now agree, was not a secret. That Wilson worked at the CIA was not widely known, but it was hardly a secret [See Cliff May at NRO and Just One Minute]. That Wilson's wife was (or had been) a covert operative was only known to (if reports are to be believed) the Cuban government and perhaps those receiving information form Aldrich Ames, but it was still a secret. Novak puts two pieces of non-secret information together and gets this flashpoint.

But how did that combination "out" a covert agent? It turns out the the Valerie Plame name (remember, according to many commenters her name's no big deal) was her cover. If her cover name was Valerie Jones how exactly would Novak's column as it was written have "outed" her? It wouldn't have. As former federal prosecJosephoesph DiGenoa contends it sure looks like the CIA didn't exactly bust a nut to "take every conceivable step to protect this person's identity."[/i]

Indeed!

I suppose this is a good way to summarize the CIA’s actions here:

Either the CIA allowed the spouse of a “covert” expert in WMD to publish a New York Times editorial on that very issue which mentions his relationship with the CIA several times, and then go on a speaking tour with his wife in tow to continue drawing attention to links between Wilson and the CIA, or the CIA was oblivious to the actions, but seemingly very uninterested in pursuing the matter with Mr. Wilson.

Note: This goes to whether a reasonable person would think Ms. Plame was “covert”, or whether her identity was a matter of national security.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Heh. Here’s a nice link to a Joe Wilson speech from prior to Novak’s column coming out, or anyone “exposing” his non-covert-operative wife [There is audio if you follow the link below] - I think this speaks nicely to the point that any undercover operative was “outed,” purposefully or not:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/10/before-novak-joe-wilson-speech-that.html

EXCERPT:

In this speech, Ambassador Joseph Wilson:

  • describes himself as the investigator sent to Niger by the government
  • details the African trip as only he is capable of
  • says the government sent him there and not the CIA (a lie: http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf )
  • says there was nothing to the uranium story (a lie: http://www.butlerreview.org.uk/news/launchstatement.pdf )
  • describes the US as “occupiers” of Iraq (a shocking statement at the time)
  • describes a conspiracy to help Israel dominate the Palestinians
  • calls the Administration warmongers and a–holes
  • says Bush is in office for sex

“As I used to say when I was doing my interviews before the war, the issue of weapons of mass destruction is primordial, it is important.”

On June 14, 2003, three months after the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Joe Wilson gave a talk to the Leftist organization, “Education for Peace in Iraq Center”. ( http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=68&showlogin=1 )

The American Thinker wrote about this talk previously ( http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 )noting that Joseph Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame were both listed on the program.

Joe Wilson and wife Valerie Plame are listed on the “Education for Peace” website. Here are segments from the talk Joe Wilson gave on June 14, 2003 ( http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 ) just three months since the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom:

[i]"Let me just start out by saying, as a preface to what I really want to talk about, to those of you who are going out and lobbying tomorrow, I just want to assure you that American ambassador who has been cited in reports in the New York Times and in the Washington Post, and now in the Guardian over in London, who actually went over to Niger on behalf of the government-not of the CIA but of the government-and came back in February of 2002 and told the government that there was nothing to this story, later called the government after the British white paper was published and said you all need to do some fact-checking and make sure the Brits aren't using bad information in the publication of the white paper, and who called both the CIA and the State Department after the President's State of the Union and said to them you need to worry about the political manipulation of intelligence if, in fact, the President is talking about Niger when he mentions Africa.

That person was told by the State Department that, well, you know, there's four countries that export uranium. That person had served in three of those countries, so he knew a little bit about what he was talking about when he said you really need to worry about this. But I can assure you that that retired American ambassador to Africa, as Nick Kristof called him in his article, is also pissed off, and has every intention of ensuring that this story has legs.

And I think it does have legs. It may not have legs over the next two or three months, but when you see American casualties moving from one to five or to ten per day, and you see Tony Blair's government fall because in the U.K. it is a big story, there will be some ramifications, I think, here in the United States, so I hope that you will do everything you can to keep the pressure on. Because it is absolutely bogus for us to have gone to war the way we did. [/i]

Wilson continues:

...As I used to say when I was doing my interviews before the war, the issue of weapons of mass destruction is primortive (primordial?), it is important...(at 3:35)

...Going from 1441 to an invasion, conquest and occupation war was not the right thing to do...

... I remain on the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that that indicates that Saddam's regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons...(at 7:50)

...I remember this guys saying these warmongers,... As the sun was coming up I had my flag out there because I am not going to let these a--holes claim that they are more patriotic than I am!...(at 13:20)

...even our military officers were absolutely dismayed at the slaughter we were inflicting on those poorly trained on the way to Baghdad...(at 19:50)

...If you take out some of these countries that are, some of these governments that are antagonistic to Israel, then you provide the Israeli Government with greater wherewithal to impose its terms and conditions on the Palestinian people...(at 20:16)

...By next year,...The pressure here in the United States will begin to build, because by that time Ariel Sharon will have made life so miserable for the Palestinians that they will cross over to Jordan or you will just see a lot of bloodshed. You will see Hamas doing things every day and you will see Israeli gunships in there...(at 27:50)

...As they say in France, people get into politics for money, power and sex. And, most of the rest of the world is the same thing. And maybe here in the states its the same thing, the sex part for Mr. Bush.(at 37:35)

...Wasn't life simpler when all our president lied about was his sex life? (at 37:45)[/i]

The entire speech is 40:37 minutes long. You can be listen to the speech HERE: http://next.epic-usa.org/epicdev2/_media/2003forumaudio/28-lecture-wilson-32.m3u

Also, from the website: He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has four children. (via American Thinker: http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3345 )

It is not shocking that this is not the only place where Joe Wilson and Volerie Plame are listed together. Here is their entry in the “Who’s Who in America” from 2002. [Note: PDF of entry available if you follow initial link]

On August 5, 2005 Kevin Aylward from Wizbang ( http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006664.php ) found this out about Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson (via Instapundit: Instapundit ):

Melvin Schuetz from Baylor’s Moody Library forwarded Joseph Wilson’s bio from the 2003 edition of Who’s Who in America [Volume 2 (L-Z)]. He notes:

[i]Wilson's entry carries over about 5 lines to the next column, which is why it cuts off in mid-sentence at the end. The relevant text is "m. Valerie Elise Plame, Apr. 3, 1998," which not only appears in the 2003 edition, but ALL editions from 1999-2005![/i]

So, via Who’s Who, the name “Valerie Plame” has been associated publicly with Joe Wilson since the Clinton era - nice secret… ***

Kevin Aylward continues:

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006664.php

[i]I'm over generalizing here, but it seem like there wasn't an outing of an agent until two non-secret bits of information were combined.Joseph Wilson's wife's maiden name, most would now agree, was not a secret. That Wilson worked at the CIA was not widely known, but it was hardly a secret [See Cliff May at NRO and Just One Minute]. That Wilson's wife was (or had been) a covert operative was only known to (if reports are to be believed) the Cuban government and perhaps those receiving information form Aldrich Ames, but it was still a secret. Novak puts two pieces of non-secret information together and gets this flashpoint.

But how did that combination "out" a covert agent? It turns out the the Valerie Plame name (remember, according to many commenters her name's no big deal) was her cover. If her cover name was Valerie Jones how exactly would Novak's column as it was written have "outed" her? It wouldn't have. As former federal prosecJosephoesph DiGenoa contends it sure looks like the CIA didn't exactly bust a nut to "take every conceivable step to protect this person's identity."[/i]

Indeed![/quote]

First off…instapundit? Wizbangblog? You usually have better sources than that, BB.

Second…look what she was wearing! She was asking for it

Stop blaming the victim. The administration willfully ruined this woman’s life because they didn’t like their husband’s positions.

BTW, looks as if insiders are predicting that the investigation will last approximately two more weeks, so if you don’t see any other indictments by then, it’s not likely that you will:

[quote]harris447 wrote:

First off…instapundit? Wizbangblog? You usually have better sources than that, BB.

Second…look what she was wearing! She was asking for it

Stop blaming the victim. The administration willfully ruined this woman’s life because they didn’t like their husband’s positions.
[/quote]

Actually Harris,

Those sources were for commentary. The primary sources were Joe Wilson’s speech, and the Who’s Who in America publications.

It’s not “blaming the victim” to point out that there wasn’t a crime.

Fitzgerald is a liar and anyone that says otherwise is a ABB’er!

None of this would have happened if Clenis had not been asleep at the switch!

Did I mention my favorite flavor is tropical punch?

Can any of the Clenis haters show me where Fitzgerald is lying?

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Fitzgerald is a liar and anyone that says otherwise is a ABB’er!

None of this would have happened if Clenis had not been asleep at the switch!

Did I mention my favorite flavor is tropical punch?

Can any of the Clenis haters show me where Fitzgerald is lying?[/quote]

Who said Fitzgerald is lying?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Red,

I do hope you notice the difference in language between the two viewpoints about this.

On one hand we hear that Wilson’s wife had him sent overseas. On the other hand we hear that she did an assessment of his abilities with respect to the location and subject matter.

Do you see how both sides are twisting those words to support their own view? Wilson says that his wife didn’t send him, and that is not a lie. The other side says she played a role, and that is not a lie.

Go figure.

Do you have any articles that don’t just have hard to substantiate he said/she said arguments? When reading opinion pieces it gets hard to tell where the facts end and the opinions begin.

Do you have the link to the report itself, in support of your allegations? Hell, I’m not even saying you are wrong, but I’d like to see it with my own eyes.[/quote]

You can buy it in your local book store, or Google it.
Senate Intelligence Committee Report on the
U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq
(July 7, 2004): p 125

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Fitzgerald is a liar and anyone that says otherwise is a ABB’er!

None of this would have happened if Clenis had not been asleep at the switch!

Did I mention my favorite flavor is tropical punch?

Can any of the Clenis haters show me where Fitzgerald is lying?

Who said Fitzgerald is lying?[/quote]

So you would agree that Fitzgerald is telling the truth?

Boston,

Some of your quoted arguments are very disingenuous and you should very well be aware of it.

You honestly think the fact they were married or the fact that he was a former diplomat were secrets? Whatever you are smoking, it probably isn’t legal!

The secret part was that his wife was actually a covert CIA agent. That is the part that was secret. Shame on you for suggesting the fact that people knew he was married or knew the role he himself played for the government had anything to do with whether or not people knew of his wifes secret activities.

You really needed me to tell you that?

As for the rest, assuming it were even accurate, it does not matter what Wilson’s personal political views are, it has no bearing on whether or not administration officials endangered the national security in order to play politics.

You honestly can’t see that? You honestly want to blame the victim for the actions of the administration? I will grant you, that if all the crap you quoted was accurate, that Wilson would appear to be doing wrong, but let me repeat for the hard of thinking…

UNLESS WILSON IS BEING INVESTIGATED FOR BREAKING THE LAW, HIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT THE ISSUE INVOLVED IN THIS INVESTIGATION, WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH IT.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
vroom wrote:
Red,

I do hope you notice the difference in language between the two viewpoints about this.

On one hand we hear that Wilson’s wife had him sent overseas. On the other hand we hear that she did an assessment of his abilities with respect to the location and subject matter.

Do you see how both sides are twisting those words to support their own view? Wilson says that his wife didn’t send him, and that is not a lie. The other side says she played a role, and that is not a lie.

Go figure.

Do you have any articles that don’t just have hard to substantiate he said/she said arguments? When reading opinion pieces it gets hard to tell where the facts end and the opinions begin.

Do you have the link to the report itself, in support of your allegations? Hell, I’m not even saying you are wrong, but I’d like to see it with my own eyes.

You can buy it in your local book store, or Google it.
Senate Intelligence Committee Report on the
U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq
(July 7, 2004): p 125[/quote]

FACT: Valerie Plame did not have the authority to send anyone to Niger.

Want to bet?

Anyway, if you want me to look at it, you can provide a damned link to it.

Otherwise, it is pure unsubstantiated bullshit… and I’m not going to waste my time to support your viewpoint. Maybe someone else will be willing to post the link on your behalf?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Anyway, if you want me to look at it, you can provide a damned link to it.

Otherwise, it is pure unsubstantiated bullshit… and I’m not going to waste my time to support your viewpoint. Maybe someone else will be willing to post the link on your behalf?[/quote]

I think you are being just a just a tad lazy vroom.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:

So you would agree that Fitzgerald is telling the truth?[/quote]

I think Fitzgerald is a very careful prosecutor who means precisely what he says, and has only specifically alleged that which he thinks he can prove.

Whether he will or not remains to be seen. And if he didn’t allege it, it’s speculation.

[quote]vroom wrote:

UNLESS WILSON IS BEING INVESTIGATED FOR BREAKING THE LAW, HIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT THE ISSUE INVOLVED IN THIS INVESTIGATION, WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH IT.[/quote]

Let me cut to the gist of it for you. If his behavrior lends insight to the underlying facts being claimed, then it is relevant. Particularly when no one has been charged with a crime relating to what you most like to allege: national security issues.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
harris447 wrote:

First off…instapundit? Wizbangblog? You usually have better sources than that, BB.

Second…look what she was wearing! She was asking for it

Stop blaming the victim. The administration willfully ruined this woman’s life because they didn’t like their husband’s positions.

Actually Harris,

Those sources were for commentary. The primary sources were Joe Wilson’s speech, and the Who’s Who in America publications.

It’s not “blaming the victim” to point out that there wasn’t a crime.[/quote]

Lying under oath isn’t a crime? Cool, important infomation to know.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Want to bet?

Anyway, if you want me to look at it, you can provide a damned link to it.

Otherwise, it is pure unsubstantiated bullshit… and I’m not going to waste my time to support your viewpoint. Maybe someone else will be willing to post the link on your behalf?[/quote]

I believe this is what you are requesting:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf

It was already in my post above, but I thought I would give it again.

Here’s another good one, if you like reports - and findings concerning British intelligence on yellowcake:

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:

FACT: Valerie Plame did not have the authority to send anyone to Niger.

[/quote]

Correct, but she nominated him to those who did have the authority, and apparently lobbied to make it happen.

[quote]vroom wrote:
As for the rest, assuming it were even accurate, it does not matter what Wilson’s personal political views are, it has no bearing on whether or not administration officials endangered the national security in order to play politics.

[/quote]
That’s just it, the fact that she was CIA could be easily deduced by reading her husbands’ speaches or editorials, so there was no “endangering of national security”. However, by lying to the public about his report to the CIA, IMO, Joseph Wilson did endanger national security.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
vroom wrote:

UNLESS WILSON IS BEING INVESTIGATED FOR BREAKING THE LAW, HIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT THE ISSUE INVOLVED IN THIS INVESTIGATION, WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH IT.

Let me cut to the gist of it for you. If his behavrior lends insight to the underlying facts being claimed, then it is relevant. Particularly when no one has been charged with a crime relating to what you most like to allege: national security issues.[/quote]

Attack the messenger and not the messege.

The WH admits the Niger claims were suspect and Wilson precipitated.

F Wilson but the Niger documents were forgeries and the Niger claims are false.

[b]FITZGERALD SAID:
Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Valerie Wilson’s friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life.

The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It’s important that a CIA officer’s identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation’s security.

Valerie Wilson’s cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003.[/b]

Fitz would have to be lying about Valerie Plame for you to be correct about Valerie’s cover.

So, is Fitz lying?