Rev. Wright Once Again Proves He is a Jackass

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Tiribulus:
I’m not nearly as good a writer as he is, so I’ll just quote Ta-Nehisi Coates on race, conservatism, and Sotomayor.

[/quote]

I think you were addressing the other guy with this post.

Truth be told I don’t think I believe Barack Obama is very deep a racist if one at all. I don’t think he sees people in terms of ethnicity so much as he sees them in terms of GLOBAL socio economic standing and status with it being his role in the world to forcibly spank the haves into giving what he perceives they owe to the have nots.

This is not limited to our shores either. He views the “aristocratic” United States as the unjustly prosperous over consuming bully and oppressor of the rest of humanity. He will be the one who finally brings peace and harmony the world over by volunteering on behalf of this country to no longer hold this preeminent position. We will disarm, scale back and return what we have stolen thus inducing tearful reconciliation among the disparate peoples of the globe.

This view comes from, as I suspect does yours, a classroom and not the actual geo political arena where somebody always wins, somebody always loses and overwhelming strength equals survival. He suffers from the same delusional vision of the world every marxist has always suffered from. The only difference is he thinks he will accomplish by charm what his predecessors attempted by force.

It’s the same foundational ideology with the same disastrous track record with less (so far) overt coercion which makes him even more dangerous.

Our constitution was written as the antidote to just such a pernicious system, not as a vehicle for it. If we do not remember this soon, like real soon, we will be reduced to a flag and some real estate with all our noblest principles fading into the mists of history.

Ergh…
I’m pretty much a libertarian. Or “liberaltarian” if that’s not too trendy a word. I agree with Milton Friedman on just about everything. I was just talking about what kind of behavior we as individuals should condemn or encourage – I’m probably as skeptical as any of you about hate crime legislation or speech codes. I’m a cosmopolitan, in this sense Rootless cosmopolitan - Wikipedia and this sense Amazon.com, and I do think that classical liberalism means promoting a more tolerant and less coercive society, racial and gender norms included.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
Tiribulus:
I’m not nearly as good a writer as he is, so I’ll just quote Ta-Nehisi Coates on race, conservatism, and Sotomayor.

I think you were addressing the other guy with this post.

Truth be told I don’t think I believe Barack Obama is very deep a racist if one at all. I don’t think he sees people in terms of ethnicity so much as he sees them in terms of GLOBAL socio economic standing and status with it being his role in the world to forcibly spank the haves into giving what he perceives they owe to the have nots.

This is not limited to our shores either. He views the “aristocratic” United States as the unjustly prosperous over consuming bully and oppressor of the rest of humanity. He will be the one who finally brings peace and harmony the world over by volunteering on behalf of this country to no longer hold this preeminent position. We will disarm, scale back and return what we have stolen thus inducing tearful reconciliation among the disparate peoples of the globe.

This view comes from, as I suspect does yours, a classroom and not the actual geo political arena where somebody always wins, somebody always loses and overwhelming strength equals survival. He suffers from the same delusional vision of the world every marxist has always suffered from. The only difference is he thinks he will accomplish by charm what his predecessors attempted by force.

It’s the same foundational ideology with the same disastrous track record with less (so far) overt coercion which makes him even more dangerous.

Our constitution was written as the antidote to just such a pernicious system, not as a vehicle for it. If we do not remember this soon, like real soon, we will be reduced to a flag and some real estate with all our noblest principles fading into the mists of history.
[/quote]

My mistake – I think I meant to talk to DoubleDuce.

And I’m largely with you on Obama, though I think we’ll necessarily have to scale back some military ambitions (given the budget, and the fact that it’s very hard to export democracy by the sword.)

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Why do you believe that she is a liberal?[/quote]

Read her last post above and you tell me.

I am using the term liberal in the current-day sense, not the classical sense.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
<<< Tribulus at a barbecue last weekend.

I keep hoping for more from you, but continue to be disappointed.

[/quote]

You’re not worth responding to. You’re the fringe, the gun toting milita lunatics who thump their bibles and hide in their bunkers. I wouldn’t give them the time of day either.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
The mistake you’re making is that you think that if the words “black” and “white” are interchanged, that we should assign the same importance or moral value to a statement. It’s the same error that leads people to, say, call Sotomayor a racist, reasoning that it would undoubtedly be racist if she had suggested that white judges came to wiser conclusions.

The problem is, this is historically blind thinking. The significance of racism is a function of the group that is the object of racism: how it has been treated, in the past and the present, and what degree of power it holds, and what opportunities are open to it. To be clear: words that are morally wrong when directed at one group need not be wrong when directed at another group.

How would you feel about a “redhead supremacy” organization? I’d find it absurd, rather than either good or evil. I wouldn’t class it with a white supremacy organization. Historical and social context matter.

[/quote]

People with a certain mindset have a certain mindset.

Better to keep an eye on them before they are able to provide " historical and social context".

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Tiribulus:
I’m not nearly as good a writer as he is, so I’ll just quote Ta-Nehisi Coates on race, conservatism, and Sotomayor.

"It isn’t, for instance, the fact that Sotomayor was raised in an era where government-backed redlining was still legal, it’s the fact that some students at Yale demanded a Chicano history course that’s the issue. Likewise, it isn’t the oppressive identity politics practiced by conservatives for the past 30 years that’s disturbing, but Sotomayor’s response to it. To be a true conservative is to be more disturbed by victimology, than actual victimizing. It is to claim to abhor evil–but to abhor the response to evil even more. "

The gist is, that in perspective, white-on-nonwhite discrimination has been and is so much more pervasive, so much more institutionalized, than anything going the opposite way, that the racial/ethnic focus of people like Wright and Sotomayor and to some extent Obama is better understood as a response to racism than its equivalent.

This, from the “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”:
“I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city’s white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative.”

This business of “grappling with underlying causes” is what I’m trying to get at. You say “differing your judgments concerning a persons actions or beliefs based on that person’s race IS RACISM.” I say, if we’re aware of social structures and historical causes, then differing our judgments is the only way not to be racist.[/quote]

You are racist (and sexist) by the Merriam Webster definition, not mine.

My whole point is that all personal circumstances and backgrounds ARE PERSONAL. You are drawing lines in the sand based on race and gender. Any time anyone does that they are 100% undeniably wrong. You are absolutely without a shadow of a doubt wrong to assume a persons back story based on race or gender. You are also wrong if you, like Sotomayor, claim one background to be any better than another.

One example that I mentioned and you failed to address are the statistics on the systematic discrimination of males out of college. Men have higher unemployment out of college. By your own logic, is it not discrimination to promote the hiring of women (as female advocacy groups do) out of college. The same could be said for helping women get into college or helping them graduate because men have lower graduation rates and lower total graduates.

So by your logic itâ??s sexist to promote women in these ways, and NOT SEXIST to purposely hire male graduates over female ones, right?

Next, letâ??s take where I lived for the past 3 years. Greenwood Mississippi. Small town, out in the delta. As a white person in the town, I was a minority. The town is something like 70% black. They have a black mayor, black city counsel, mostly black police department. This is a town whose city counsel blocked the building of a Loweâ??s (something the town really needed) because the guy who wanted to build it was white. They instead let the building (recently vacated by the walmart) sit and rot rather than have a white business owner (all of this was publicly admitted in the paper). This was just one incident.

Are you telling me that none of that was racist because whites are systematically in control? That none of my experiences could ever qualify for moral indignation because Iâ??m white, so I obviously deserve it. Or did you forget while drawing your racist lines in the sand to take into count actual experience of an individual before making judgments.

For you to excuse the actions of the people in that town because of their race makes you a racist ignorant fool, who needs to wake up to the reality of what you are.

Yeah but she feels good about herself and morally superior because her awardings of racial preference are in the “correct” directions.

“Affirmative action” of a sort for men has been common in liberal arts colleges for a while and I don’t have a problem with it. Men do face some disadvantages because of their sex; predominately male jobs are often more dangerous, men are more likely to be targets of violence, divorce law seems to favor wives over husbands. If we want to address “men’s issues” we have to do things specifically for men.

As for your Lowe’s, I grew up in a neighborhood like that, with aldermen who blocked development for those kinds of reasons. It’s bad economics and bad city planning, that’s for sure. I think my aldermen are idiots and harming their constituents. But it does not read as racism to me, I’m afraid. It does not read as morally equivalent to a case in which the races would have been reversed. That’s my intuition, and I don’t really mind your judging me harshly for it – it’s just that the way you think flies in the face of my common sense.

Of course your experiences can qualify you for moral indignation. I’m just suspicious of collective moral indignation on behalf of the white race. And I’m suspicious of the right’s emphasis on reverse racism, often to the exclusion of paying attention to ordinary racism.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
“Affirmative action” of a sort for men has been common in liberal arts colleges for a while and I don’t have a problem with it. Men do face some disadvantages because of their sex; predominately male jobs are often more dangerous, men are more likely to be targets of violence, divorce law seems to favor wives over husbands. If we want to address “men’s issues” we have to do things specifically for men.

As for your Lowe’s, I grew up in a neighborhood like that, with aldermen who blocked development for those kinds of reasons. It’s bad economics and bad city planning, that’s for sure. I think my aldermen are idiots and harming their constituents. But it does not read as racism to me, I’m afraid. It does not read as morally equivalent to a case in which the races would have been reversed. That’s my intuition, and I don’t really mind your judging me harshly for it – it’s just that the way you think flies in the face of my common sense.

Of course your experiences can qualify you for moral indignation. I’m just suspicious of collective moral indignation on behalf of the white race. And I’m suspicious of the right’s emphasis on reverse racism, often to the exclusion of paying attention to ordinary racism.[/quote]

Wow. You are a piece of work. You belittle my character and experience, for my gender and my race, based on common sense?

You admit that many times “minorities” are the system. You agree that they do discriminate against people based on race, denying them business opportunities (you failed to address the claim that based on your definition feminism is sexist, while refusing to hire women isnâ??t). And you claim moral superiority while justifying it. You are contradicting your own definition. You, at this point, donâ??t care whoâ??s in the majority, or who is running the show. You only care about black versus white. As long as whites are discriminated against is fine, blacks, bad, apparently regardless of situation. Youâ??re a bigot. You are the exact opposite of judging people based on content of character. You donâ??t care about character or the experience that you were originally so highly touting.

You then throw up some party line rhetoric about white indignation and â??reverseâ?? discrimination. Guess what, there is no such thing as reverse discrimination and the use of the word to belittle the experience of my race pisses me off like no other. And then you claim Iâ??m â??against common senseâ?? for being mad that I get racially stereotyped. You are trying to redefine a word. A kindergartner could tell you youâ??re wrong. Iâ??ve presented facts and logic that contradict everything you have said, while you have presented nothing but hot air from you biased perspective. No justification. No logic. No redress of my claims, other than claiming â??common senseâ??.

The whole point is that everyone should fight against discrimination wherever they see it. I try to. But you refuse to fight against it in all forms BY YOUR OWN ADDITION. And even admit to fight for it, and to use it yourself.

I am not a republican. My anger has nothing to do with any political philosophy. It has to do with my own experience. Throughout my life, I have experienced and witness plenty of bigotry, but I have to tell you most of it is of the â??reverseâ?? variety ESPECIALLY when it comes to institutionalized discrimination. My dad was turned down for his first career job even though the company agreed he was the best candidate, because they wanted a tax break hiring a minority (my aunt worked for the company and was privy to the information, she resigned over the incident). When I started thinking about college, my scholarship opportunities were more limited than my minority peers. When I applied to college they asked my race on the application so they could hold me to stricter standards than applicants of other races (and genders). I actually checked â??otherâ?? trying to cover up my racial identity so I would have a better shot at acceptance. But I try not to allow those grievances to affect me when engaging someone of another race and gender because I know that individual is not morally sequestered by their race (something you purposely donâ??t do).

So this is my official screw you for casually sweeping away my life experience because Iâ??m the evil white man with a silver spoon in my mouth. You are officially the worst kind of racist, one that masquerades as a civil rights advocate.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
<<< Tribulus at a barbecue last weekend.

I keep hoping for more from you, but continue to be disappointed.

You’re not worth responding to. You’re the fringe, the gun toting milita lunatics who thump their bibles and hide in their bunkers. I wouldn’t give them the time of day either. [/quote]

Absolutely correct.

Today anybody who simply concurs with the overall original intent of our founding IS fringe. Hence, we have a marxist enemy in the whitehouse.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
<<< Wow.>>>
[/quote]

This is what happens when very simple concepts are allowed to be filtered through groovy elitist thought processes.

Any qualitative judgment directed toward another human being by anyone based on any criteria related to the anthropological strain from which they’ve been spawned over their individual person hood is racism. Having to elucidate that any further explains a whole host of problems this country is now quite unnecessarily wrestling with.

For the last time, I am not calling you any names or belittling your experience. I have no doubt that you’re an admirable person. I know you don’t have a silver spoon in your mouth. And why on earth would I hate white people? I assure you I’m not a bigot.

You’re the one making personal attacks, and I’d rather not get into that. There is an argument to be made from your side, and I do think it can’t be dismissed lightly. The question really is, what is equal treatment? Do you treat two people as equals if you deal with them identically? I would say, not necessarily – think of Aristotle’s example of Milo the great boxer and his scrawny assistant. It’s not “unfair” to give Milo six pounds of food and his assistant only one. The fairness is proportionate. Fairness is not treating an employer and employee identically, or a parent and a child. I wonder if this kind of proportionate fairness might not apply to different groups in society – if differential treatment could actually be the means to equality. That is not the same as claiming the innate superiority of a race, or basing institutions on such a claim, which is the definition of racism.

I feel like we’re at odds here, and I’m happy to agree to disagree – just wanted to clarify so I’m not mistaken for some hate-crazed nut.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
For the last time, I am not calling you any names or belittling your experience. I have no doubt that you’re an admirable person. I know you don’t have a silver spoon in your mouth. And why on earth would I hate white people? I assure you I’m not a bigot.

You’re the one making personal attacks, and I’d rather not get into that. There is an argument to be made from your side, and I do think it can’t be dismissed lightly. The question really is, what is equal treatment? Do you treat two people as equals if you deal with them identically? I would say, not necessarily – think of Aristotle’s example of Milo the great boxer and his scrawny assistant. It’s not “unfair” to give Milo six pounds of food and his assistant only one. The fairness is proportionate. Fairness is not treating an employer and employee identically, or a parent and a child. I wonder if this kind of proportionate fairness might not apply to different groups in society – if differential treatment could actually be the means to equality. That is not the same as claiming the innate superiority of a race, or basing institutions on such a claim, which is the definition of racism.

I feel like we’re at odds here, and I’m happy to agree to disagree – just wanted to clarify so I’m not mistaken for some hate-crazed nut.[/quote]

But exactly as I have shown, you cannot make an intelligent link between race and experience. There is a difference between a parent making individual decisions for each of their children and the government making collective racial decisions, you are attempting to equate to unlike things. A race, does not have rights, it is not an entity, it does not deserve protection or favoritism. Only individuals do. It is also not the place of the government to make things the same (not equal). It is also goes against the whole idea of a constitutional republic to include empathy in the law. The whole idea of blind justice.

I also donâ??t care whether you think you belittle me or not, each time you refer to â??reverse discrimination, you do, every time you doubt the moral indignation of the â??white manâ??, you do, every time you attempt to justify prejudice against me, you do, every time you said that me fighting against systematic discrimination of my race because of â??common senseâ??, you did. You attempt to sweep away the reality of MY LIFE by connecting it with some sort of â??extremistâ?? political philosophy.

Despite, my direct factual contradiction to your view, you remain obstinately devoted to your prejudices, for that, yes, I label you a bigot (never said you hate white people, but you do seem to apologize for your race). I consider it a factual description more than name calling. Sorry if I label a tree a tree, even if it thinks itâ??s a rose bush.

If someone came on here claiming the racial reverse of the same thing Iâ??d call them a bigot too, because I treat people equally, but Iâ??m sure I wouldnâ??t need to because there would be plenty here who would refute them. Thatâ??s fine if you donâ??t want to stand up for me in the face of a wrong, but Iâ??ll be damned if you are going to morally refute me for it.

I do not treat people the same, I treat them equally, there is a difference. The government owes us equal opportunity, NOT equal results. Thatâ??s what equality in the political sense of the word means. Regardless of background, or color, you get a chance to do what you want with your life. That none of those things should matter (the exact opposite of what youâ??ve been arguing).

As for your boxer reference: No, it isnâ??t unfair for people of different appetites to ACQUIRE different quantities, but it IS wrong for the government (or you) to decide how much either of them should get. Itâ??s even more atrociously wrong to decide what they deserve based on race. The only fair thing to do is to let them provide for themselves and protect them from having someone like you steal from them for re-distribution.

You yourself just equated the relationship and contract between a government and itâ??s people with that of a parent and child. I happen to agree with the founding fathers that an individual adult has ultimate right and the Government must answer to him. If you donâ??t see the difference between that and a parent/child, relationship, there is no hope for you. A government doesnâ??t have the same rights as a parent, and even if it did, a parent makes individual decisions about their children and should not care which has a darker complexion.

Different treatment can be the means to sameness, but flies in direct contradiction to equal opportunity, and individual rights.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
<<< I wonder if this kind of proportionate fairness might not apply to different groups in society – if differential treatment could actually be the means to equality. >>>[/quote]

I don’t wonder that. The answer is no and we are up to our ear lobes in overwhelming evidence that this is the case.

We were left with a limited number of all bad options regarding how to proceed once we got a national grip on the abominable state of affairs that we had created between blacks and whites in this country. Of them all, we chose the very worst one. It has destroyed their families, relegated them (not all, but a large percentage) to a perpetual cycle of dehumanizing dependence on the very people who once oppressed them and that has in turn produced resentment among whites who would otherwise have abandoned their racism decades ago.

Once again, my fringe view is that individuals, of any race, left unencumbered by overreaching central oversight and acting in the best interest of themselves and the people they love and are directly responsible for was the magic that lifted this country to preeminence in less than 2 centuries. It works for all people of all races provided they actually give a shit about something beyond their own immediate personal self gratification. If not, no amount or manner of government can save that society. You cannot force one person to support another they have never met and expect glorious results.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

I feel like we’re at odds here, and I’m happy to agree to disagree – just wanted to clarify so I’m not mistaken for some hate-crazed nut.[/quote]

Welcome to the PWI Alisa. Bring your flamethrower and fire suit. If you forgot it, you can’t borrow mine. They’re after me I tell you and I’m gong to get them first!

Here’s how. (Though I’m not sure you’ll agree.) We had a policy to encourage the development of black-owned businesses. This inevitably means that some development proposals by white business owners will be scrapped. Those who propose policies like that think it’s a good thing to do because blacks are underrepresented among business owners, and encouraging entrepreneurship would economically strengthen the local black community.

I think the policies are a bad idea, because they’re a form of protectionism, and we wind up with fewer successful businesses in the neighborhood overall. But the motivation behind it is not racism (the innate superiority of one race over another) but rather the old liberal principle of justice as fairness. It aims to give a boost to a group (black entrepreneurs) that is experiencing some difficulty.

i realize you guys don’t think that constitutes justice. Sometimes even I don’t. (I really think we’re nationally better off if businesses compete on an equal footing.) But the point is, it’s not based in any kind of bigotry, it’s a prioritarianism thing. If redheads were having economic difficulty on average, the same logic would imply encouraging redhead-owned businesses.

There is some merit in what you say in this last post understood that way in that context as much as I think that it’s bad and counterproductive policy.