Republican Party Hypocrisies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
142

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:
You all may have missed my post clarifying that I’m against the murder of two year olds. Even against killing viable un-born babies.
[/quote]

Of course…now back up, second by second, minute by minute, day by day until you feel the murder of that exact same child CAN be justified. When you get to that precise point in time tell us why we can then snuff out with impunity.[/quote]

Conception to roughly seven weeks. Because they are a handful of cells with no brain.[/quote]

Uh oh, you got yourself a problem now. Earlier you were harping on the third trimester, the 27th week, being the cutoff point. Now you’re at seven weeks. You now have 20 weeks to account for. Whatcha gonna do with those 20 weeks?
[/quote]

No that was the other guy. Spartiates.

144

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

An organism becomes human when it gains “mind”. Mind is the product of a highly-developed and sophisticated brain. So sophisticated in fact, only one species in the known universe has one.
[/quote]

This is not true.[/quote]

Please share.[/quote]

145

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

An organism becomes human when it gains “mind”. Mind is the product of a highly-developed and sophisticated brain. So sophisticated in fact, only one species in the known universe has one.
[/quote]

This is not true.[/quote]

Please share.[/quote]

The ability to recognize oneself in the mirror does not constitute mind.

But I try to avoid eating apes, elephants and dolphins just to be on the safe side.

146

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

An organism becomes human when it gains “mind”. Mind is the product of a highly-developed and sophisticated brain. So sophisticated in fact, only one species in the known universe has one.
[/quote]

This is not true.[/quote]

Please share.[/quote]

The ability to recognize oneself in the mirror does not constitute mind.

But I try to avoid eating apes, elephants and dolphins just to be on the safe side.[/quote]

You had mentioned being self aware as your definition of mind earlier. If that isn’t what you mean, you are going to need to define “mind” a little better.

147

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

An organism becomes human when it gains “mind”. Mind is the product of a highly-developed and sophisticated brain. So sophisticated in fact, only one species in the known universe has one.
[/quote]

This is not true.[/quote]

Please share.[/quote]

The ability to recognize oneself in the mirror does not constitute mind.

But I try to avoid eating apes, elephants and dolphins just to be on the safe side.[/quote]

You had mentioned being self aware as your definition of mind earlier. If that isn’t what you mean, you are going to need to define “mind” a little better.[/quote]

You’re right, I was sloppy because I figured we all knew what I was talking about.

Mind: intellect, consciousness (not merely awareness, as that can be passive): active thought (as distinguished from passive instinct), perception, memory, emotion, will, imagination and reason.

148

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:
You all may have missed my post clarifying that I’m against the murder of two year olds. Even against killing viable un-born babies.
[/quote]

Of course…now back up, second by second, minute by minute, day by day until you feel the murder of that exact same child CAN be justified. When you get to that precise point in time tell us why we can then snuff out with impunity.[/quote]

Conception to roughly seven weeks. Because they are a handful of cells with no brain.[/quote]

Uh oh, you got yourself a problem now. Earlier you were harping on the third trimester, the 27th week, being the cutoff point. Now you’re at seven weeks. You now have 20 weeks to account for. Whatcha gonna do with those 20 weeks?
[/quote]

That was me.

And that’s not what I said. I said that the first trimester was clear and the third were clear, the second is a gray area. The seven weeks mentioned is an extremely “Christian Conservative” friendly estimate, after which time some argue that the ability to feel pain becomes present. Not that consciousness is present.

20 weeks is a pretty standard cutoff in states/locals that have made laws limiting abortion, and that gives you a six week window before there’s anything close to higher-brain functions going on.

149

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

An organism becomes human when it gains “mind”. Mind is the product of a highly-developed and sophisticated brain. So sophisticated in fact, only one species in the known universe has one.
[/quote]

This is not true.[/quote]

Please share.[/quote]

The ability to recognize oneself in the mirror does not constitute mind.

But I try to avoid eating apes, elephants and dolphins just to be on the safe side.[/quote]

You had mentioned being self aware as your definition of mind earlier. If that isn’t what you mean, you are going to need to define “mind” a little better.[/quote]

You’re right, I was sloppy because I figured we all knew what I was talking about.

Mind: intellect, consciousness (not merely awareness, as that can be passive): active thought (as distinguished from passive instinct), perception, memory, emotion, will, imagination and reason.[/quote]

So what disqualifies really smart apes?

150

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

You’re right, I was sloppy because I figured we all knew what I was talking about.

Mind: intellect, consciousness (not merely awareness, as that can be passive): active thought (as distinguished from passive instinct), perception, memory, emotion, will, imagination and reason.[/quote]

So what disqualifies really smart apes?[/quote]

They don’t have mind. One of the things mind has allowed us to do is build, generation to generation, upon the knowledge our parents gained. It’s a good litmus test of mind. Really smart apes can’t do that. You can have a really smart ape father, and a really smart ape child. The father will be unable to teach the child anything that’s not instinctually based.

For example, some apes use ‘tools’ to capture bugs; they use reeds or sticks, stick them in a hive, and eat the bugs that stick to them. This is instinct. An adult can “teach” this to its kid. Sometimes an individual will stumble upon (or you could argue figures out) a way to improve the tool. However, since they have no mind, no abstract concept of what they’ve done to improve the tool, the why or how, they can’t teach it to another, and preserve the knowledge. Every generation starts from square one all over again.

When we developed mind in our course through evolution, all of the sudden, when we made a tool (even if it was accidental, the way apes do) we had the cognitive faculty to understand what we did, so we could teach it someone else, and if it was improved upon, and knowledge was created, that knowledge could be passed down from individual to individual, generation to generation. Really smart apes can’t do that, because they have no mind, and don’t form abstract concepts to attach to the things they make and do.

This seems way off topic.

151

The other thing I’d say, is that SC ruling on abortion revolves not around the argument we’re having in this thread, but around a woman’s right to privacy.

If you are going to argue against abortion rights, then you are arguing that when a women gets pregnant, she gives up the right to self-determination, and makes her body a ward of the state.

152

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

They don’t have mind. One of the things mind has allowed us to do is build, generation to generation, upon the knowledge our parents gained. It’s a good litmus test of mind. Really smart apes can’t do that. You can have a really smart ape father, and a really smart ape child. The father will be unable to teach the child anything that’s not instinctually based.

For example, some apes use ‘tools’ to capture bugs; they use reeds or sticks, stick them in a hive, and eat the bugs that stick to them. This is instinct. An adult can “teach” this to its kid. Sometimes an individual will stumble upon (or you could argue figures out) a way to improve the tool. However, since they have no mind, no abstract concept of what they’ve done to improve the tool, the why or how, they can’t teach it to another, and preserve the knowledge. Every generation starts from square one all over again.

When we developed mind in our course through evolution, all of the sudden, when we made a tool (even if it was accidental, the way apes do) we had the cognitive faculty to understand what we did, so we could teach it someone else, and if it was improved upon, and knowledge was created, that knowledge could be passed down from individual to individual, generation to generation. Really smart apes can’t do that, because they have no mind, and don’t form abstract concepts to attach to the things they make and do.

This seems way off topic.[/quote]

Ape learning is not instinct based any more than a child learning. The main difference is that apes lack the designated role of teacher and student. I could go into more detail, but in some respects it makes apes more of independent thinkers than children. A child will follow a teacher regardless of whether the actions and knowledge are useful in any way. An ape will not.

Even octopi can learn by observation much the same way a child does.

You don’t seem to know much about animal understanding. Even animals like dogs are capable of reasonable complex creative problem solving.

So your qualification for being a human is being able to build as a society? Does that mean when societies regress in learning, the individuals become un-human?

And this once again leads us to the loop hole of mentally handicapped homosapiens.

Besides, children generally don’t even pass the mirror test until 18 months post birth. They learn exactly the same way apes do until later in life.

153

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Republicans - They support the death penalty, but not abortion.
Democrats - They support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Either vote ends up killing someone. So if you’re a true Christian Conservative, you shouldn’t vote for either.[/quote]

Calculate the number of people executed via death penalty last year and compare it to the number of abortions…Numbers do matter.

155

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

…And this once again leads us to the loop hole of mentally handicapped homosapiens…
[/quote]

Yes, it does…and from there it’s just a short distance to the wonderful world of eugenics…Hi Margaret Sanger, I’m Push. What are your thoughts on this matter?[/quote]

Quit jumping ahead, my plan was to lead him into eugenics.

156

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Republicans - They support the death penalty, but not abortion.
Democrats - They support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Either vote ends up killing someone. So if you’re a true Christian Conservative, you shouldn’t vote for either.[/quote]

Calculate the number of people executed via death penalty last year and compare it to the number of abortions…Numbers do matter.[/quote]

Sure, it’s a little compared to a lot. But regardless, killings nonetheless.

I have to ask the Christians in support of death penalty: Would you do it yourself? Push has said that execution isn’t murder. So would you personally par take in an execution of another if you’re for the death penalty?

Why or why not?

157

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Republicans - They support the death penalty, but not abortion.
Democrats - They support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Either vote ends up killing someone. So if you’re a true Christian Conservative, you shouldn’t vote for either.[/quote]

Calculate the number of people executed via death penalty last year and compare it to the number of abortions…Numbers do matter.[/quote]

Sure, it’s a little compared to a lot. But regardless, killings nonetheless.

I have to ask the Christians in support of death penalty: Would you do it yourself? Push has said that execution isn’t murder. So would you personally par take in an execution of another if you’re for the death penalty?

Why or why not?[/quote]

Yes, as a citizen in keeping wth the rule of law and valuation of human life. There is nothing within the scriptures that forbids the execution of murderers.

159

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Republicans - They support the death penalty, but not abortion.
Democrats - They support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Either vote ends up killing someone. So if you’re a true Christian Conservative, you shouldn’t vote for either.[/quote]

Calculate the number of people executed via death penalty last year and compare it to the number of abortions…Numbers do matter.[/quote]

Sure, it’s a little compared to a lot. But regardless, killings nonetheless.

I have to ask the Christians in support of death penalty: Would you do it yourself? Push has said that execution isn’t murder. So would you personally par take in an execution of another if you’re for the death penalty?

Why or why not?[/quote]

Yes, as a citizen in keeping wth the rule of law and valuation of human life. There is nothing within the scriptures that forbids the execution of murderers.[/quote]

Damn, you’re right. This is what I found after a few searches on “Christianity and death penalty”. Looks like only the Catholic Church is against it which could be why I’m confused.

As Christianity became more socially acceptable and became accepted as part of the Roman establishment, theologians reassessed capital punishment and found it inoffensive. St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430), perhaps the most influential of the post-New Testament theologians, wrote in The City of God that “[t]he same divine authority that forbids the killing of a human being establishes certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law…”

The great scholasticist St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) upheld Augustine’s pro-death penalty interpretation in Book II of his Summa Theologica, writing that “if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community … it is praiseworthy and healthful that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good.” But this was before the formation of the penitentiary system, which allows dangerous individuals to be separated from the community by less drastic means.

Today, the Roman Catholic Church and most global Protestant traditions oppose capital punishment, while most conservative U.S.-based Protestant traditions support it.

Source: Pros and Cons of the Death Penalty

160

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

I have to ask the Christians in support of death penalty: Would you do it yourself? Push has said that execution isn’t murder. So would you personally par take in an execution of another if you’re for the death penalty?

Why or why not?[/quote]

Willingly, maybe even gladly, knowing I am doing the innocent members of society a favor. The instant you kill someone [that doesn’t deserve it] intentionally, you lose all rights as a human being. The end. That is my rational. Questions?