[quote]pushharder wrote:
Natural rights can’t be taken away except by the One who granted them.[/quote]
Yup. If you’re cool enough to stop bullets in the Matrix, you’re cool enough to grant or take away natural rights.
[quote]H factor wrote:
If this hasn’t happened already at some point (which it probably has) it undoubtedly will at some point in the future. You could play the victim and end up a millionaire. Culture wars and social media could be the new lottery 
[/quote]
There is little doubt in my mind that social media has exacerbated the culture wars hysteria, especially with the LGBT issues, on both sides, for the last 5+ years.
However, it’s generally agreed by historians that the crux of the 20th century African-American Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s-1960s also largely lived and died on publicity, particularly vis-a-vis television broadcasts of that time.
Case in point with this pizzeria, an anecdotal, subjective albeit credible statement from a reputable Daily Kos poster, who is apparently in the media business himself, stated that a reporter from South Bend, IN stopped into the pizzeria earlier this week on his way to a fishing excursion. He asked that girl whose picture has gone viral what she thought of this whole religious freedom bill, and she responded something akin to “as a Christian owned business, we wouldn’t want to service a gay wedding either, if requested.” He then apparently got permission or asked to quote her for a story, and ran with a headline that this IN pizzeria becomes the first to publicly proclaim it will not service gay clientele. Whether true or not, either way, the story went viral with a misleading headline and now the business temporarily closes due to the backlash against perceived bigotry, exacerbated by social media and re-reporting of the original headline by sensationalist media sources. However, I highly doubt this pizzeria called up the local paper and asked them to run a story that they were not going to service gays, so once again the real issues are clouded by shoddy reporting and mass hysteria, and Twitter and FB have been buzzing with this particular story, from both sides.
[quote]JR249 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
If this hasn’t happened already at some point (which it probably has) it undoubtedly will at some point in the future. You could play the victim and end up a millionaire. Culture wars and social media could be the new lottery [/quote]
There is little doubt in my mind that social media has exacerbated the culture wars hysteria, especially with the LGBT issues, on both sides, for the last 5+ years.
However, it’s generally agreed by historians that the crux of the 20th century African-American Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s-1960s also largely lived and died on publicity, particularly vis-a-vis television broadcasts of that time.
Case in point with this pizzeria, an anecdotal, subjective albeit credible statement from a reputable Daily Kos poster, who is apparently in the media business himself, stated that a reporter from South Bend, IN stopped into the pizzeria earlier this week on his way to a fishing excursion. He asked that girl whose picture has gone viral what she thought of this whole religious freedom bill, and she responded something akin to “as a Christian owned business, we wouldn’t want to service a gay wedding either, if requested.” He then apparently got permission or asked to quote her for a story, and ran with a headline that this IN pizzeria becomes the first to publicly proclaim it will not service gay clientele. Whether true or not, either way, the story went viral with a misleading headline and now the business temporarily closes due to the backlash against perceived bigotry, exacerbated by social media and re-reporting of the original headline by sensationalist media sources. However, I highly doubt this pizzeria called up the local paper and asked them to run a story that they were not going to service gays, so once again the real issues are clouded by shoddy reporting and mass hysteria, and Twitter and FB have been buzzing with this particular story, from both sides.[/quote]
Yes I really wasn’t attempting to accuse them of anything more saying generally how these situations will be ripe for fraud if they aren’t already. Poor journalism and sensationalized headlines may have lead to the backlash (and massive donations in turn), but some people are going to attempt to create this for themselves in the future as they see the type of money someone can bring in by being victims of intolerance (on either side).
[quote]H factor wrote:
Yes I really wasn’t attempting to accuse them of anything more saying generally how these situations will be ripe for fraud if they aren’t already. Poor journalism and sensationalized headlines may have lead to the backlash (and massive donations in turn), but some people are going to attempt to create this for themselves in the future as they see the type of money someone can bring in by being victims of intolerance (on either side). [/quote]
Yeah, that’s the weakness in these crowd fund sources, but if people want to willingly give their money away to dubious causes, well, I guess it’s your money, but I’ve never contributed to any crowd fund sources. I’m even guarded with charitable contributions unless I can comfortable ascertain that money is spent by the organization in a judicious manner and people are actually helped to some degree, and even that’s hard to do at times.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
422k
EDIT: that’s over 100k in two hours… Two fucking hours… wow[/quote]
You know, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this was a calculated decision on the pizzeria’s part for publicity.
The bakery also got a flood of customers and quite a bit of moral support after the incident.
Though I’m not sure if the pizzeria planned to make quite this much money.[/quote]
I have no idea if this is true or not, but it undoubtedly will be at some point. You look at these little culture battles whether it’s Chick Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, whatever. Look what happens on both sides when a business or an individual comes out as a “victim” of intolerance. Money just pours out and these type of situations are going to be ripe for fraud if they haven’t already.
I’m NOT saying memories did this intentionally as I have no idea, but you’ve got to think the temptation for places and people (no matter what side of the fence they are on) to play the “look what happened to us because we are gay or Catholic or transgender or Baptist, etc.” It’s so easy to send people money and when people have strong convictions about issues (as they do with gay rights/religion/racism/sexism/etc.) their will be that idea to make a point by donating money.
If this hasn’t happened already at some point (which it probably has) it undoubtedly will at some point in the future. You could play the victim and end up a millionaire. Culture wars and social media could be the new lottery [/quote]
As for Memories Pizza, they didn’t ask for it. The media barged in and started asking questions. They didn’t seek out the media, they came to them. They gave their opinion and the tolerance monkeys made death threats and threatened to burn down their establishment based on a hypothetical question.
I for one am glad that these assholes are being exposed for who they are, intolerant violent assholes.
If i were a student writing a paper, I would still be doing the research. I’m trying to understand the conflict. Think of me as raising my hand in class, asking a question.
My position is that one day I want to be the City Manager. As a member of the administration, being on the wrong side of the wrong issue could finish my career before it gets rolling. I’ve got about 2 minutes to sum up both sides of a situation for a panel of city councilmen. I say " natural rights" and their eyes are gonna glaze over.
The business of America is business. We need to reach some compromise and end the fighting which is bad for business.
If Religion is innate, then sexual orrientation is a choice.
If sexual orrientation is innate, then religion is a choice.
Both sides get upset when anything that could be interpreted as attacking their fundamentals comes up. Its like a circular argument.
I get a lot of threats for the socially conservative positions I take on here. Ahem, yeah. I mean, YEAH!
Give me a minute to figure out where I want the money sent to.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
422k
EDIT: that’s over 100k in two hours… Two fucking hours… wow[/quote]
You know, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this was a calculated decision on the pizzeria’s part for publicity.
The bakery also got a flood of customers and quite a bit of moral support after the incident.
Though I’m not sure if the pizzeria planned to make quite this much money.[/quote]
I have no idea if this is true or not, but it undoubtedly will be at some point. You look at these little culture battles whether it’s Chick Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, whatever. Look what happens on both sides when a business or an individual comes out as a “victim” of intolerance. Money just pours out and these type of situations are going to be ripe for fraud if they haven’t already.
I’m NOT saying memories did this intentionally as I have no idea, but you’ve got to think the temptation for places and people (no matter what side of the fence they are on) to play the “look what happened to us because we are gay or Catholic or transgender or Baptist, etc.” It’s so easy to send people money and when people have strong convictions about issues (as they do with gay rights/religion/racism/sexism/etc.) their will be that idea to make a point by donating money.
If this hasn’t happened already at some point (which it probably has) it undoubtedly will at some point in the future. You could play the victim and end up a millionaire. Culture wars and social media could be the new lottery [/quote]
As for Memories Pizza, they didn’t ask for it. The media barged in and started asking questions. They didn’t seek out the media, they came to them. They gave their opinion and the tolerance monkeys made death threats and threatened to burn down their establishment based on a hypothetical question.
I for one am glad that these assholes are being exposed for who they are, intolerant violent assholes.[/quote]
It’s just sensationalism. People go on social media and it’s a mob mentality. Someone says something and someone wants to one up that person so they say something even worse.
Twitter, article comments, most other forms of social media are simply massive amounts of trolling and morons shouting just to shout. I mean when the White House fence was jumped you had people on facebook and comments articles saying “too bad they didn’t kill him (Obama).” These are just cesspools of attention starved people trying to score the best one liner.
Honestly it’s disturbing the how low the level of human behavior goes when people are just on a computer with full anonymity. Lots of people have very sad lives apparently. It’s like a group of middle school kids who just learned how to cuss and are trying to stand out by saying the worst possible thing.
[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
If i were a student writing a paper, I would still be doing the research. I’m trying to understand the conflict. Think of me as raising my hand in class, asking a question.
[/quote]
There are two overarching debates going on here.
The conflict is this:
There are state laws and local ordinances that prohibit private businesses from discriminating against protected classes of people based on such categories as race, sex, age, ethnicity, place of origin, creed, nationality AND sexual orientation. That means that you cannot refuse service to a customer based on the customer’s being a member of one or more of those protected classes. On the other hand, the U.S. Constitution guarantees free exercise of religion, and some business owners are citing legitimate religious reasons why they should not be forced to provide goods or services for same-sex wedding ceremonies. In a very limited number of extreme cases, such as the doctor, they are claiming the right to refuse service to gays. Either way, there is the legal dilemma.
Should private businesses be allowed to refuse service for any reason, and on a related note, if no, should there be a clause that makes an exception for legitimate, closely held religious beliefs? In other words, does my fight to free exercise of religion trump your civic right, protected at a state or local level, from not being discriminated against? So far the Supreme Court has refused to take a case on this exact issue (note: the Hobby Lobby case was related, but tied to the ACA, a federal law mandating contraception coverage, not a discrimination issue in the same right). Local and state courts are siding against the Free Exercise clause for the most part.
Here’s a more credible story about how the pizzeria debacle went viral, so perhaps the Daily Kos poster was misinformed, either way, the point I made earlier still stands:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I get a lot of threats for the socially conservative positions I take on here. Ahem, yeah. I mean, YEAH!
Give me a minute to figure out where I want the money sent to.[/quote]
Legitimate threats, or strongly worded, sometimes borderline or actual ad hominem attacks? I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but I’ve seen few actual threats of harm or violence on T-Nation.
[quote]JR249 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I get a lot of threats for the socially conservative positions I take on here. Ahem, yeah. I mean, YEAH!
Give me a minute to figure out where I want the money sent to.[/quote]
Legitimate threats, or strongly worded, sometimes borderline or actual ad hominem attacks? I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but I’ve seen few actual threats of harm or violence on T-Nation.
[/quote]
Sorry, I though it was clear I was attempting to be funny. “Ahem, yeah. I mean, YEAH!”
I’ve failed. It was supposed to me shamelessly and transparently (despite a bad attempt at concealing it) trying to “make some bank,” as the kids these days say.
I get it, my humor sucks =(. Did you really have to point it out though, JR?!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sorry, I though it was clear I was attempting to be funny. “Ahem, yeah. I mean, YEAH!”
I’ve failed. It was supposed to me shamelessly and transparently (despite a bad attempt at concealing it) trying to “make some bank,” as the kids these days say.
I get it, my humor sucks =(. Did you really have to point it out though, JR?!
[/quote]
For someone who has literally been hauled in to the principal’s office more than anyone else on staff at my place of employment for the use of verbal sarcasm in the classroom, you’d think my online, typewritten sarcasm detector would function faarrrr better, but alas it’s almost broken to the point of embarrassment at times.
How can people in the middle come up with a law, fair to both sides, if both sides dispute the very basis of what the other side wants?
2 sides are dug in, nobody trusts the mediator!
Ok! Generational culture war! Bigger than this issue, but brought to a head by this issue.
Can a compromise be reached on some related issue, then reverse applied to this issue? 5 year truce until we sort out China or something?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
422k
EDIT: that’s over 100k in two hours… Two fucking hours… wow[/quote]
You know, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this was a calculated decision on the pizzeria’s part for publicity.
The bakery also got a flood of customers and quite a bit of moral support after the incident.
Though I’m not sure if the pizzeria planned to make quite this much money.[/quote]
I have no idea if this is true or not, but it undoubtedly will be at some point. You look at these little culture battles whether it’s Chick Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, whatever. Look what happens on both sides when a business or an individual comes out as a “victim” of intolerance. Money just pours out and these type of situations are going to be ripe for fraud if they haven’t already.
I’m NOT saying memories did this intentionally as I have no idea, but you’ve got to think the temptation for places and people (no matter what side of the fence they are on) to play the “look what happened to us because we are gay or Catholic or transgender or Baptist, etc.” It’s so easy to send people money and when people have strong convictions about issues (as they do with gay rights/religion/racism/sexism/etc.) their will be that idea to make a point by donating money.
If this hasn’t happened already at some point (which it probably has) it undoubtedly will at some point in the future. You could play the victim and end up a millionaire. Culture wars and social media could be the new lottery [/quote]
As for Memories Pizza, they didn’t ask for it. The media barged in and started asking questions. They didn’t seek out the media, they came to them. They gave their opinion and the tolerance monkeys made death threats and threatened to burn down their establishment based on a hypothetical question.
I for one am glad that these assholes are being exposed for who they are, intolerant violent assholes.[/quote]
What, no! They are the paragons of virtue. The apotheosis of all that is good and true! All their websites tell me so! How could Gawker, the Huffington Post, AND the Guardian lie?
This article is off topic, but I think it is of tangential relevance at least.
[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
How can people in the middle come up with a law, fair to both sides, if both sides dispute the very basis of what the other side wants?
2 sides are dug in, nobody trusts the mediator! [/quote]
Honestly, I have no idea how the humble small town pizzeria lady hasn’t been recognized as voicing the most fair and authentic Christian position in all of this…
And I would wager real money, if I were a wagering man with money, that the vast majority of us social conservatives, or us orthodox believing Catholics, could live with a law that outlined as much. Though, it might still offend the old “I’m a citizen of the US of A, I don’t want/need daddy government telling me what to do in my place of business, even though I was already and voluntarily already doing it” sensibilities.
[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
How can people in the middle come up with a law, fair to both sides, if both sides dispute the very basis of what the other side wants?
2 sides are dug in, nobody trusts the mediator! [/quote]
That has been stated many times in this thread:
Respect the right of private business owners to refuse to service same-sex wedding ceremonies for legitimate, closely held religious reasons. This isn’t carte blanche license to hang signs in your window denying gays service in general, just that you are protected from being sued if you don’t want to provide a good or service specific to a same-sex wedding, e.g., florists, bakers, photographers, vocalists, non-Church wedding chapels that operate for profit, caterers, etc. - a narrow set of circumstances that would protect a select category of businesses that might run into a conflict where being forced to service same-sex weddings would legitimately compromise their closely held fundamentalist religious principles.