Religious Controversies: Man/Woman Equality

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

What is it with you Push. I did not say you claimed Christ in that exchange. [/quote]

Then I misunderstood you. When you read your statement it IS in the context of talking to Alisa. The fact that you shifted gears and left Alisa behind is not evident. Use paragraphs to convey your thoughts more effectively, please.[/quote]
That’s fair enough. It seems clear to me, but I wrote it so I guess it would.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
you really don’t discern any difference in Solomon using the highest poetic language of his day and you using what in our society is rank pornographic profanity? That is Christlike?[/quote]

You don’t understand the poetic language of Solomon’s day any more than you understand the intricacies of the human eye.

You are trapped, my friend, trapped in neo-Pharisaism. Trapped in legalism. And you’re miserable. Even if you don’t realize it.[/quote]
Everything I’ve said already addresses this, Geez. I will say that I have been quite familiar with misery in my life and this is not it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

6:13 - the ladies of the evening who had been admiring their passion for each other, beg them to come back so that they can watch how her man ravishes her[/quote]

Where are you getting “ladies of the evening?” We don’t know if they are males or females to be honest.[quote]

6:14 - her lover replies that this is a dance for 2, not a public festival and they go back to her place[/quote]

There is no vs. 14 but anyway, your interpretation here that the dance is just for two is purely subjective. But that’s fine. I think it merely establishes that she’s dancing. No mention of going back to her place. C’mon, Irish, how big is your thumb that you can keep pulling stuff out of it, bud?[quote]

curtain falls/curtain rises[/quote]

No curtain in the scripture doing anything (either figuratively or literally).[quote]

7:1-9 she is very obviously dancing for him . . . and the ravishing begins

7:10 - WOW![/quote]

No indication the friends or ladies of the evening or whatever, had been dismissed. None.

[/quote]

You can’t be missing the plain text here . . .

5:8 establishes the friends as the daughters of jerusalem, it is they whom she calls out to and it is they who respond

you need to read my explanation again . . .

6:13 the daughters of Jerusalem call for her to return - this clearly indicates she is taking her man and leaving. She doesn’t respond - she’s ready to get back to business now that she has her man - it’s time to go, he does answer and does so in the interrogative - why should you ladies get to watch what we’re going to do as if watching the dance of to armies maneuvering against each other in fierce combat? It’s asked specifically why should they get to watch these two lovers ravishing each other - this implication is that this is not going to be a spectator sport - by the term he uses (dance of two armies) - he is not referring to a dance by one, but of the dance of them both together.

The word picture created in these passages is clear. She is waiting at home for him, he comes, she teases him, he doesn’t think she’s going to let him in and leaves- she runs after him, is briefly detained by the cops, keeps looking for him - asks the ladies of the evening if they have seen him,they ask why he’s so special, she tells them about him - they see her passion for himand based on her description they want to see this perfect man, she finds him, the embrace, she’s ready to go and starts to drag him off, the ladies want to see what this wonderful man is going to do to her, and beg her to stay so they can witness her ravishing and being ravished by her man - he replies and say, sorry, but why should you ladies get to watch this dance of two - end of narrative . . . now they are alone and complete their lovemaking.

There is no reply,no rejoinder justifying why they should remain, thus the break in poetry (curtain fall/rise) - the logical narrative places them back at her place where she is seducing her man even more, they enjoy each, and another narrative cut and now she wants to go out and make love in the fields . . . .

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

6:13 the daughters of Jerusalem call for her to return - this clearly indicates she is taking her man and leaving. She doesn’t respond - she’s ready to get back to business now that she has her man - it’s time to go, he does answer and does so in the interrogative - why should you ladies get to watch what we’re going to do as if watching the dance of to armies maneuvering against each other in fierce combat? It’s asked specifically why should they get to watch these two lovers ravishing each other - this implication is that this is not going to be a spectator sport - by the term he uses (dance of two armies) - he is not referring to a dance by one, but of the dance of them both together…

[/quote]
Let’s run with your interpretation here for a min…“they,” the ladies, want to and ask to watch Shulie dance naked. Why would they ask/expect this if it were not a common practice of the day?

If Sol decides he wants a one on one dance and dismisses them the inference is that dancing naked in front of an audience was not necessarily out of the ordinary.

Your interpretation, “the daughters of Jerusalem call for her to return - this clearly indicates she is taking her man and leaving” is very subjective but nonetheless not to be dismissed. Thanks! You did do a good job!
[/quote]

Hey, these are the ladies of the evening - they have seen it all, and I am sure that public sex acts were nothing strange or unusual to them. I have no problem with that understanding.

And to answer you other question, yes Solomon had many women - no doubt about it. Some people try to avoid this understanding by distinguishing between her lover and Solomon - I do not. I clearly see this as being spoken between Solomon and his lover, the “lady of Solomon”.

does that given Divine approval of Solomon’s many wives? nnaaahhh, that would be a hard stretch in the best case . . . you know that.

Thanks! I appreciate your patience while I worked up to the question - you know me, no shortcuts

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Some of the “porn” that Tirib the Satanic Tool Assassin thinks would be atrocious if a modern day man talked about it in modern language and terms.

Song 5:[i]

[quote]Shulie wrote:

2 I slept but my heart was awake.
Listen! My lover is knocking:
“Open to me, my sister, my darling,
my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
my hair with the dampness of the night.”

3 I have taken off my robe
must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet
must I soil them again?

4 My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
my heart began to pound for him.

5 I arose to open for my lover,
and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
on the handles of the lock. [/i][/quote]

Know what the myrrh was in vs. 5?

Know what she was doing?

Yes, that’s what she was doing. Something that is prohibited today by the legalists.[/quote]

that’s why this book is so important - God created sex - of course we are supposed to enjoy it . . . like I said, big fan of the book!

aahh - textual based identification - it is dark (he’s covered in early morning dew), the watchmen are out, she calls out to the daughters of Jerusalem who are in the streets as she is searching for her man . . . seemed pretty plain to me.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

does that given Divine approval of Solomon’s many wives? nnaaahhh, that would be a hard stretch in the best case . . . you know that.
[/quote]

Not a stretch by any means. It IS a stretch to take it the other way.[/quote]

LOL - You are a better Bible student that that and you know better than that. Biblical identification or mentioning is not the same thing as God saying - Hear me, O people of Israel, I Am that I am says I approve of Solomon’s many women"

The Bible identifies and mentions a lot of things - this is in no way explicit approval

[quote]pushharder wrote:
<<< Look friend, I know who you are. I used to be you.[/quote]
If true then my prayers will be answered.