Religious Belief is Human Nature?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

This is another thing i don’t get pat. It’s not that hard to lead a good life. I’ve found that it’s a lot less stressful to be nice and generally kind to people. Since i loath [bad] stress i avoid behaviour that leads to stress.

What you like to think or prefer is the basis for your beliefs. That’s true for me too.

Life isn’t fair. Bad things happen to good people, and bad people get away with murder.

That’s just the way it is.
[/quote]

Ah, well now we get into some squishy ground…What is a good life? To me avoiding doing harm a getting along with others is part of it, but there’s more. There’s the element of doing for others to your own discomfort or even detriment. For instance, Mother Teresa, most people agree she led an extraordinarily good life. But she lived minimally, poor and suffered quite a bit…What’s the point if there is nothing later?

She did a lot of good, but for what?

Would you put yourself in harms way for the sake of the others and to your own detriment?

Would you die for a stranger?

These are the things we Christians are compelled to do by our faith.

62

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

This is another thing i don’t get pat. It’s not that hard to lead a good life. I’ve found that it’s a lot less stressful to be nice and generally kind to people. Since i loath [bad] stress i avoid behaviour that leads to stress.

What you like to think or prefer is the basis for your beliefs. That’s true for me too.

Life isn’t fair. Bad things happen to good people, and bad people get away with murder.

That’s just the way it is.
[/quote]

Ah, well now we get into some squishy ground…What is a good life? To me avoiding doing harm a getting along with others is part of it, but there’s more. There’s the element of doing for others to your own discomfort or even detriment. For instance, Mother Teresa, most people agree she led an extraordinarily good life. But she lived minimally, poor and suffered quite a bit…What’s the point if there is nothing later?

She did a lot of good, but for what?

Would you put yourself in harms way for the sake of the others and to your own detriment?

Would you die for a stranger?

These are the things we Christians are compelled to do by our faith.
[/quote]

I disagree on Theresa, but that’s just a matter of opinion.

I’d like to think that i would act to save another even if that meant getting hurt. Honestly though, i’ve never been in such a situation.

I also think that it’s enough to be a nice person. I don’t think we’re our brother’s keeper, but that it’s good to act in a way that is not detrimental to others.

Perhaps it’s also about the difference in scale. There’s nearly 17 million people here, and most of them live here [see attached image]

Life is easier, i think, and altough charity is seen as a virtue, you don’t really have to rely on your community for money, food or housing if the going gets tough.

Guess that lies at the heart of the issue: if life is good, religion becomes obsolete.

63

[quote]pat wrote:
2000 years unrefuted is a pretty good track record.[/quote]

Now refute Taoism and Hinduism. They’ve been around longer.

64

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
2000 years unrefuted is a pretty good track record.[/quote]

Now refute Taoism and Hinduism. They’ve been around longer.[/quote]

Refute what about them?

65

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
2000 years unrefuted is a pretty good track record.[/quote]

Now refute Taoism and Hinduism. They’ve been around longer.[/quote]

Refute what about them? [/quote]

lol seriously

66

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Where is your proof. [/quote]

Nearly every theory in physics is a revision from previous theory.

Einstein corrected Newton (but Newton still works for earthbound mechanics).[/quote]

…but your premise is that people who believed incorrect scientific theories are proven incorrect, learn and revise. Catholicism has been sitting basically on the top of the hill for 2000 years and has yet to be proven wrong, so why would we need to revise. Sure a few million straw men have been beaten up, burned, &c., but no one has yet taken a single brick out of the foundation.

[/quote]

?

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim (e.g. Catholics claiming god exists).

Just because you can’t prove that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it likely that a tooth fairy does in fact exist.

67

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

This is another thing i don’t get pat. It’s not that hard to lead a good life. I’ve found that it’s a lot less stressful to be nice and generally kind to people. Since i loath [bad] stress i avoid behaviour that leads to stress.

What you like to think or prefer is the basis for your beliefs. That’s true for me too.

Life isn’t fair. Bad things happen to good people, and bad people get away with murder.

That’s just the way it is.
[/quote]

Ah, well now we get into some squishy ground…What is a good life? To me avoiding doing harm a getting along with others is part of it, but there’s more. There’s the element of doing for others to your own discomfort or even detriment. For instance, Mother Teresa, most people agree she led an extraordinarily good life. But she lived minimally, poor and suffered quite a bit…What’s the point if there is nothing later?

She did a lot of good, but for what?

Would you put yourself in harms way for the sake of the others and to your own detriment?

Would you die for a stranger?

These are the things we Christians are compelled to do by our faith.
[/quote]

Everything good the Church does can be duplicated by secular means.

You see people in society have been taught at a young age that part of being a good person is to have faith.

I would argue that a lot of the really giving and charitable people in Churches would be just as giving and charitable even if they had no religious affiliation.

68

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< Just because you can’t prove that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it likely that a tooth fairy does in fact exist. >>>[/quote]YEAH!!! Tellem Raj.

Man I wish you’d take up my weapons Chris. It’s hurtin me watchin these heathen beat you up like this with your own Aristotelean arsenal.

69

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< Just because you can’t prove that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it likely that a tooth fairy does in fact exist. >>>[/quote]YEAH!!! Tellem Raj.

Man I wish you’d take up my weapons Chris. It’s hurtin me watchin these heathen beat you up like this with your own Aristotelean arsenal.

[/quote]

Oh I Will!!

Spin has always been one of the Church’s best weapons. Looks like you did learn something useful in church.

70

Ever notice that religion is a tool to control people in one argument, but then has little to no affect on how people lead their lives in another argument? People would be just as charitable, just as likely to form stable and lasting family, just as likely not to steal, murder, lie, cheat, or covet.

Can religiphobes please choose an argument?

71

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ever notice that religion is a tool to control people in one argument, but then has little to no affect on how people lead their lives in another argument? People would be just as charitable, just as likely to form stable and lasting family, just as likely not to steal, murder, lie, cheat, or covet.

Can religiphobes please choose an argument?[/quote]

The point made by control is that it is to keep people under the thumb of the Church or Mosque or Temple etc. and give them money and power. If you think that your behavior is dependent on the teachings of such institutions even when it is not, then you are under their control.

But you already knew that.

72

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ever notice that religion is a tool to control people in one argument, but then has little to no affect on how people lead their lives in another argument? People would be just as charitable, just as likely to form stable and lasting family, just as likely not to steal, murder, lie, cheat, or covet.

Can religiphobes please choose an argument?[/quote]

The point made by control is that it is to keep people under the thumb of the Church or Mosque or Temple etc. and give them money and power. If you think that your behavior is dependent on the teachings of such institutions even when it is not, then you are under their control.

But you already knew that.[/quote]

Then you must also believe religion to be an extremely powerful motivator as to questions of moraliy. It’s one or the other. Either it’s a powerful motivator/governor or it isn’t.

73

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< The point made by control is that it is to keep people under the thumb of the Church or Mosque or Temple etc. and give them money and power. >>>[/quote]That CAN be the case and is a large % of the time. However, as far as I’m aware the Catholic church doesn’t pressure it’s members for money very hard and neither does mine though tithes and offering are a legitimate form of worship. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< If you think that your behavior is dependent on the teachings of such institutions even when it is not, then you are under their control. >>>[/quote]Or you can live as you do out of love and gratitude to the God whose institution it is, cheerfully giving your time and treasure to your brethren. I now that’s entirely foreign to you, but there are many for whom this is the case.

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ever notice that religion is a tool to control people in one argument, but then has little to no affect on how people lead their lives in another argument? People would be just as charitable, just as likely to form stable and lasting family, just as likely not to steal, murder, lie, cheat, or covet.

Can religiphobes please choose an argument?[/quote]

The point made by control is that it is to keep people under the thumb of the Church or Mosque or Temple etc. and give them money and power. If you think that your behavior is dependent on the teachings of such institutions even when it is not, then you are under their control.

But you already knew that.[/quote]

Then you must also believe religion to be an extremely powerful motivator as to questions of moraliy. It’s one or the other. Either it’s a powerful motivator/governor or it isn’t.[/quote]

No, I think it tricks people into thinking it governs morality or has answers. Centuries wasted looking at a dead end for morality. If it were a true source of morality it wouldn’t change as the years pass. We no longer stone people in civilized culture, and that shift (and others like it) comes from something other than religion.

75

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< No, I think it tricks people into thinking it governs morality or has answers. Centuries wasted looking at a dead end for morality. If it were a true source of morality it wouldn’t change as the years pass. We no longer stone people in civilized culture, and that shift (and others like it) comes from something other than religion.[/quote]Actually it comes from the eternally ordained transition from BC to AD. Old covenant to new. Theocracy to “my kingdom is not of this world”.

76

I mean, are we saying religion as human nature didn’t push foward (past an alternative nonreligious) as some sort of advantageous social and communal trait?! If it’s so widespread as to be able to consider it human nature, as opposed to nonreligiosity, who needs to prove what to who here?

Besides, further debate is simply entertaining religiphobia. Religious belief is human nature…huge study…case closed. Loving this study.

77

[quote]Makavali wrote:

No, I think it tricks people into thinking it governs morality or has answers.[/quote]

If ‘morality’ simply came from nature, then religion couldn’t trick anyone. Noone would be looking for answers (such as on issues of morality) they instinctually knew. I don’t go to church to learn how to breathe or blink.

Oh, and this study says there’s no trick. It’s just human nature.

Besides, did the earliest, say Christians, practice power and control when being fed to lions?

Or, do you believe in seeing the future, and these men and women were capable of doing such. And in doing so, knew their descendents position in society would be much, much improved?

78

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I mean, are we saying religion as human nature didn’t push foward (past an alternative nonreligious) as some sort of advantageous social and communal trait?! If it’s so widespread as to be able to consider it human nature, as opposed to nonreligiosity, who needs to prove what to who here?

Besides, further debate is simply entertaining religiphobia. Religious belief is human nature…huge study…case closed. Loving this study.[/quote]

I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.

79

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.[/quote]WOW, lots more origins required here too =]

80

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.[/quote]WOW, lots more origins required here too =]
[/quote]
Yes, lots…