referring to the study cited in the OP
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
- Smite the infidels - it is a commandment. They didn’t come up with the idea themselves, God told them to. They were acting out his will. So it’s not just a history account - it’s an insight into God’s will and his way of dealing with infidel nations. He condones genocide and killing women and children.[/quote]
Okay, well if you think a historical writing is proof that G-d commands us to kill infidels, please don’t pick up history book. And, please show me where G-d commands us to ‘kill infidels.’ I am serious, I am sure you know the Bible better than me. You have already showed you can complete my mere challenge.
- If you are looking for an order that it is our duty to go out on a full time killing spree against everybody who don’t believe in God, then, to best of my knowledge, there is no such thing. BUT, there are dozens and probably hundreds of instances when God COMMANDS to go out on a full time killing spree against a certain group of UNBELIEVERS. For example:
Exodus:
"32:21: And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
32:22: And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
32:23: For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
32:24: And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
32:25: And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
32:26: Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and SLAY EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, and every man his COMPANION, and every man his NEIGHBOUR.
32:28: And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about THREE THOUSAND MEN."
etc, there are really a lot of them, and some I’ve already quoted.
- You just did cherry-pick. You chose the part that you like, (merciful Jesus) and disregarded the part you dislike (rule about stoning gays in OT and the promise of burning ‘sodomites’ in the lake of fire and brimstone in NT revelation) God doesn’t change and can’t be wrong. so if you live by his word, it’s your duty to obey all of it.
As for this:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
I was talking hypothetically. You know that for many, many generations people believed that the Pope was the voice of God.
[/quote]
No they didn’t.
[/quote]
I’m sorry, but you should probably read up on the history of your church from non-catholic sources. Pope represented himself as an heir of st. Peter’s, who was appointed by Christ to have the heavenly authority. And people bought it. Some still do.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
The way I see it, both Koran and OT clearly say that sometimes God wants you to kill infidels.
The difference is only that Muslims still take that stuff seriously. (If we took the OT seriously we would have to kill gays, all non-virgin single women, all who work on Saturdays etc.)
If you honestly believed that say, Pope, is the infallible voice of God, and he told you that it is your duty to kill as many Muslims as you can, you’d assume that it is god’s will, and therefore, right and moral. And there are plenty of places in the Bible to lean on.[/quote]
The difference is: in the Old Testament, God commanded the Jewish tribes to kill their enemies in the Promice Land. These were guys who committed human sacrifice by slaughtering babies and feeding them to their god Moloch. No one believes in Moloch today.
In the Koran, the infidels Allah tells the Muslims to kill are Christians and Jews who are very much alive and active religions today.
[/quote]
Well, to stop them from killing children, God had to … slaughter all of their children?
And, you are wrong. To the best of my knowledge, Koran wants Muslims to kill pagans. Christians and Jews are not to be killed, because we worship the same God under a different name, EXCEPT if Christians and/or Jews attack Muslim countries and their ‘homes’
Also, there are some radical Jews who believe that modern day Arabs are to be treated the same as the ancient nations in Joshua’s time, because they are godless intruders on Promised land, and some also believe that modern-day Palestinians are actually Philistines, ancient Jewish enemies. Like Philistines - Palestine - Palestinians.
So there you go, it not just history.
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
[/quote]
Well, to stop them from killing children, God had to … slaughter all of their children?
And, you are wrong. To the best of my knowledge, Koran wants Muslims to kill pagans. Christians and Jews are not to be killed, because we worship the same God under a different name, EXCEPT if Christians and/or Jews attack Muslim countries and their ‘homes’
[/quote]
please explian these verses from the Koran:
2:191
5:51
3:64
Hell, read this:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
etc, there are really a lot of them, and some I’ve already quoted.[/quote]
There is a difference between telling of an event and an order. God did establish the seat of Moses for a reason.
No, I didn’t cherry-pick. I guess you cherry ‘missed’ the whole stoning of Mary Magdalene and the three step process of fraternal correction. Do I think that adultery, sodomy, public drunkenness should be a chargeable offense
[quote]I’m sorry, but you should probably read up on the history of your church from non-catholic sources. Pope represented himself as an heir of st. Peter’s, who was appointed by Christ to have the heavenly authority. And people bought it. Some still do.
[/quote]
Oh thanks, I have never thought about studying a Church that claims to be the Church founded by Jesus Christ, I thought I’d just go ahead and take their word and not even look into their evidence.
Yes, the Pope is in fact the successor of St. Peter, who was appointed by Christ to have both earthly and heavenly authority. However, that is not the voice of God. And, yes I still believe that Pope B16 is in fact the Bishop of Rome in the Office of St. Peter, the Successor of Peter, the Servant of the Servants of God from Peter til Final Judgment.
Anyway.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
Well, to stop them from killing children, God had to … slaughter all of their children?
And, you are wrong. To the best of my knowledge, Koran wants Muslims to kill pagans. Christians and Jews are not to be killed, because we worship the same God under a different name, EXCEPT if Christians and/or Jews attack Muslim countries and their ‘homes’
[/quote]
please explian these verses from the Koran:
2:191
5:51
3:64
Hell, read this:
http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm[/quote]
To explain what?
2:190, 191 - FIGHT in the way of Allah THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But IF THEY FIGHT YOU, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
5:51 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
3:64 Say, “O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah .” But if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].”
Seriously, is this the worst they have???
And even your link says: “Infidels are those who worship any other but Allah.Yet I have heard Muslims claim Allah is the same God of the Old Testament”.
EDIT: Nobody says that there is NO violence preached in Koran.
But your verses compared to those quoted from judeo-christian Old Testament read like some left wing socio-liberal bullshit.
Don’t embarrass yourself.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
etc, there are really a lot of them, and some I’ve already quoted.[/quote]
There is a difference between telling of an event and an order. God did establish the seat of Moses for a reason.
No, I didn’t cherry-pick. I guess you cherry ‘missed’ the whole stoning of Mary Magdalene and the three step process of fraternal correction. Do I think that adultery, sodomy, public drunkenness should be a chargeable offense
[quote]I’m sorry, but you should probably read up on the history of your church from non-catholic sources. Pope represented himself as an heir of st. Peter’s, who was appointed by Christ to have the heavenly authority. And people bought it. Some still do.
[/quote]
Oh thanks, I have never thought about studying a Church that claims to be the Church founded by Jesus Christ, I thought I’d just go ahead and take their word and not even look into their evidence.
Yes, the Pope is in fact the successor of St. Peter, who was appointed by Christ to have both earthly and heavenly authority. However, that is not the voice of God. And, yes I still believe that Pope B16 is in fact the Bishop of Rome in the Office of St. Peter, the Successor of Peter, the Servant of the Servants of God from Peter til Final Judgment.
Anyway.[/quote]
-
Yeah, for a reason of being the only God worshiped in Israel, and killing everybody who disagreed. That is your God. That’s the way he rolls.
-
Whatever dude. You take one, leave out the other. Muslims do the same. They also claim that you should know the whole story to understand Koran - and you don’t. Deal with it.
-
It seems like it. If you believe that Jesus told Peter that he can make changes on earth that will be valid in heaven, which the Bible tells you, AND if you believe the pope has the same power as st. Peter - - - then Pope has heavenly authority.
And if you lived in the Middle ages, there would be a lot of people working for the pope ready to prove my point you should obey him, by poking you with sharp metal objects, and it got kinkier from there. And that was my ONLY point - sometimes you are raised to believe in supreme authority of a religious figure, and christians did it to.
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
Don’t embarrass yourself. [/quote]
ok:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
- Yeah, for a reason of being the only God worshiped in Israel, and killing everybody who disagreed. That is your God. That’s the way he rolls.[/quote]
I don’t think God killed everyone that disagreed. He killed those who were enemies.
Pretty sure I don’t. In order to properly understand the Bible one has to understand the totality of scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the analogy of the faith. If you take all three, no one can, in good faith, take the Bible to mean kill infidels.
That’s not the voice of God. Difference. The only person that speaks with the voice of God, is God. The Pope speaks with the voice of the Bishop of Rome, he speaks infallibly on faith and morals. However, that doesn’t mean when the Pope says I want Germany to win the World Cup, then Germany will win. The Pope can teach faith and morals (which don’t change by the way) and he can ‘make changes’ such as forgive or not forgive sins and excommunicating and absolving of excommunication. But, Priests, usually, can forgive sins and in some cases absolve of excommunication.
Middle Ages? I love the Middle Ages (after all, that is where most of my thinking comes from), and what episode with ‘sharp metal objects’ are you referring to. I have my history books out, I would like to do some studying on it. 
Supreme authority comes from God, displayed on earth through the Pope and his Bishops who are in communion with him, yes. And, as the famous Bull says, all men would do kind to pay allegiance to the Pope and obey him as he is the Servant of Servants of God.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
Don’t embarrass yourself. [/quote]
ok:
http://www.adl.org/terrorism/listofattacks.asp[/quote]
lol
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
and some also believe that modern-day Palestinians are actually Philistines, ancient Jewish enemies. Like Philistines - Palestine - Palestinians.
So there you go, it not just history.
[/quote]
lol…
this guy writes something like this and tells me not to embarrass myself?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
and some also believe that modern-day Palestinians are actually Philistines, ancient Jewish enemies. Like Philistines - Palestine - Palestinians.
So there you go, it not just history.
[/quote]
lol…
this guy writes something like this and tells me not to embarrass myself?
[/quote]
Yes, and I’ll say it again. Don’t embarrass yourself. Read. Not only from the books you like, not only from the things you’d like to be true, but from all.
Read up on the casualties in the Muslim world caused by christian countries. And I don’t mean the crusades. I mean 21. century.
read histories from different nations, as I have. Or, if that’s too difficult, read up on Palestinians on wiki-fuckin-pedia.
Christian religion is not superior to Islam, they are both equally violent and bigoted. The only reason Christians are more advanced is that we don’t care about it anymore. Back when we did, it was in a time called the Dark Ages. Go figure.
If you read history, you would know there was a migration of Arabs from Arabia which flooded across the middle east in the middle of the 7th Century, they traveled across the north of Africa, and into Spain. On the other side of Arabia, they went east and north, entering Iran, then called Persia, and what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan, which then was part of India. They also entered the south of what is today Russia, though the majority of the Muslims living there are actually descendants of The Golden Horde of Mongols, which moved there 6 centuries later.
So to say the Palestinians are actually Philistines is Not historically accurate, since, before the Arab invasions, Palestine was also invaded by ancient Macedonians (who are Not the same people inhabiting Greece today, since there was also a massive invasion of Greece by the Slavs in the 6th Century.) Romans, and Byzantines.
By the same token, the people currently inhabiting Turkey today can not trace their roots back to the people of Troy, since there was another massive migration which occured over thousands of years into that country.
Yes, I agree with you, read about history, maybe you’ll one day learn this stuff.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
If you read history, you would know there was a migration of Arabs from Arabia which flooded across the middle east in the middle of the 7th Century, they traveled across the north of Africa, and into Spain. On the other side of Arabia, they went east and north, entering Iran, then called Persia, and what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan, which then was part of India. They also entered the south of what is today Russia, though the majority of the Muslims living there are actually descendants of The Golden Horde of Mongols, which moved there 6 centuries later.
So to say the Palestinians are actually Philistines is Not historically accurate, since, before the Arab invasions, Palestine was also invaded by ancient Macedonians (who are Not the same people inhabiting Greece today, since there was also a massive invasion of Greece by the Slavs in the 6th Century.) Romans, and Byzantines.
By the same token, the people currently inhabiting Turkey today can not trace their roots back to the people of Troy, since there was another massive migration which occured over thousands of years into that country.
Yes, I agree with you, read about history, maybe you’ll one day learn this stuff.
p.s. here’s a good one for ya, did you know the Macedonia of Yugoslavia and the Macedonia of Alexander the Great are NOT the same place? There’s actually 2 different Macedonias.
[/quote]
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
If you read history, you would know there was a migration of Arabs from Arabia which flooded across the middle east in the middle of the 7th Century, they traveled across the north of Africa, and into Spain. On the other side of Arabia, they went east and north, entering Iran, then called Persia, and what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan, which then was part of India. They also entered the south of what is today Russia, though the majority of the Muslims living there are actually descendants of The Golden Horde of Mongols, which moved there 6 centuries later.
So to say the Palestinians are actually Philistines is Not historically accurate, since, before the Arab invasions, Palestine was also invaded by ancient Macedonians (who are Not the same people inhabiting Greece today, since there was also a massive invasion of Greece by the Slavs in the 6th Century.) Romans, and Byzantines.
By the same token, the people currently inhabiting Turkey today can not trace their roots back to the people of Troy, since there was another massive migration which occured over thousands of years into that country.
Yes, I agree with you, read about history, maybe you’ll one day learn this stuff.
p.s. here’s a good one for ya, did you know the Macedonia of Yugoslavia and the Macedonia of Alexander the Great are NOT the same place? There’s actually 2 different Macedonias.
[/quote]
My original post:
There are people, both among Palestinians and Jews, and among their scholars, who believe that Palestinians descend from the ancient nations described in the Bible, including Philistines. I’m not the one saying that. Look it up.
I said some RADICAL JEWS believe that. My opinion - there is probably some genetic material in there from those times, but after a couple of millennium, doesn’t really matter.
And about Macedonia, well, almost right. There is a region called Macedonia in Greece, there is a modern day Slavic country of Macedonia, and then there is the ancient Hellenic empire of Macedonia. Know how I know?
I live an hour away from Macedonian border.
Smartass.
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
I live an hour away from Macedonian border.
Smartass.
[/quote]
Don’t call me a smart ass, your the one who told me to read about history.
which Macedonian border?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
I live an hour away from Macedonian border.
Smartass.
[/quote]
Don’t call me a smart ass, your the one who told me to read about history.
which Macedonian border?
[/quote]
Fair enough, I was outtta line. I’m sorry for calling you a smart ass.
Northern, of FYR Macedonia. And it’s more like 3 hours by car.
just say’n
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
I live an hour away from Macedonian border.
Smartass.
[/quote]
Don’t call me a smart ass, your the one who told me to read about history.
which Macedonian border?
[/quote]
Fair enough, I was outtta line. I’m sorry for calling you a smart ass.
Northern, of FYR Macedonia. And it’s more like 3 hours by car.
[/quote]
I have family friends from Macedonia. Everyone asks if they’re related to Alexander the Great. Their like, wrong Macedonia.
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]MaliMedved wrote:
and some also believe that modern-day Palestinians are actually Philistines, ancient Jewish enemies. Like Philistines - Palestine - Palestinians.
So there you go, it not just history.
[/quote]
lol…
this guy writes something like this and tells me not to embarrass myself?
[/quote]
Yes, and I’ll say it again. Don’t embarrass yourself. Read. Not only from the books you like, not only from the things you’d like to be true, but from all.
Read up on the casualties in the Muslim world caused by christian countries. And I don’t mean the crusades. I mean 21. century.
read histories from different nations, as I have. Or, if that’s too difficult, read up on Palestinians on wiki-fuckin-pedia.
Christian religion is not superior to Islam, they are both equally violent and bigoted. The only reason Christians are more advanced is that we don’t care about it anymore. Back when we did, it was in a time called the Dark Ages. Go figure.[/quote]
Is this the “You gotta free think this stuff” guy? No, bros you gotta free think this stuff!
Actually Catholicism is superior, we had mass conversion of entire countries without force. Boom superior.