Religion of Peace...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I would consider the Old Testament to be a “violence-positive” text, which would put the percentage of Christian Churches in the US which teach and support violent texts at 100.[/quote]

Really? I’ve sat in a Christian Church ~40 times/year for the last 40 years, and I’ve never heard anyone recomend, encourage or even condone violence. I think you are ignorant as to what the Old Testament says and take individual versus out of context.[/quote]

I am in no way ignorant as to what the Old Testament says. It is literally full of bloodshed. It describes the comings and goings of a violent God and His violent creation.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the average Christian Church is actually violent. I am simply pointing out the fact that a house of worship may harbor violent texts without necessarily being a establishment which explicitly or actively condones violence itself.[/quote]

Besides on a politically correct tv show, when was the last time a group of christians committed an act of terrorism? I remember a couple years ago a bombing or attempted bombing in New York happened. The media wanted it so bad to be a group of straight, white christian males to be the perpertrators. They act like they were all heart broken when it turned out to be the usual suspects.

62

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Show me a verse that says, “Go and slaughter everyone including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so.”[/quote]

Insert challenge accepted meme

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, YOUNG AND OLD, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 10:37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and ALL THE SOULS that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and ALL THE SOULS that were therein.

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: THERE WAS NOT ANY LEFT TO BREATHE: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

Joshua 11:12 And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD commanded.

Numbers 31

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

(…)

17Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Judges 21:10
And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, WITH THE WOMEN AND THE CHILDREN.

Deuteronomy 7

1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and UTTERLY DESTROY THEM; thou shalt make no covenant with them, NOR SHEW MERCY unto them:

63

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Dude, are you seriously saying that the Old Testament doesn’t encourage violence and bloodshed?

Like when God says: Go and slaughter everybody including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so?

That’s not encouraging violence to you?[/quote]No, the Old Testament DOES NOT in any way encourage violence. GOD HIMSELF commanded exterminating conquest by force in circumstances where He saw fit to do so. There is no general advocacy for or encouragement of violence in even the Old Testament. In the now New Testament church age ANY and ALL violence alleged to be in the name of the God of the bible is a flat out lie as that theocratic earthly divine economy has been fulfilled into the heavenly kingdom of Christ Jesus by His own declaration and the universal teaching of the apostles. I guess I can hope that helps, but certainly doubt it does for some people.
[/quote]

God himself commanded exterminating conquest by force = God commanded violence in His name. True or false?

If it’s true, then Old Testament says that there are cases when slaughter and bloodshed appease God and violence is in accordance with his will.

Then, not resorting to violence when God says you should resort to it - is wrong. Sinful even.

Is my reasoning sound to you?

[/quote]

No, we’re talking about violence positive literature and in your case encouraging violence. OT doesn’t encourage teenage boys to go out and blow up their local market because it has infidels in it.[/quote]

The way I see it, both Koran and OT clearly say that sometimes God wants you to kill infidels.
The difference is only that Muslims still take that stuff seriously. (If we took the OT seriously we would have to kill gays, all non-virgin single women, all who work on Saturdays etc.)

If you honestly believed that say, Pope, is the infallible voice of God, and he told you that it is your duty to kill as many Muslims as you can, you’d assume that it is god’s will, and therefore, right and moral. And there are plenty of places in the Bible to lean on.

64

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Dude, are you seriously saying that the Old Testament doesn’t encourage violence and bloodshed?

Like when God says: Go and slaughter everybody including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so?

That’s not encouraging violence to you?[/quote]No, the Old Testament DOES NOT in any way encourage violence. GOD HIMSELF commanded exterminating conquest by force in circumstances where He saw fit to do so. There is no general advocacy for or encouragement of violence in even the Old Testament. In the now New Testament church age ANY and ALL violence alleged to be in the name of the God of the bible is a flat out lie as that theocratic earthly divine economy has been fulfilled into the heavenly kingdom of Christ Jesus by His own declaration and the universal teaching of the apostles. I guess I can hope that helps, but certainly doubt it does for some people.
[/quote]

God himself commanded exterminating conquest by force = God commanded violence in His name. True or false?

If it’s true, then Old Testament says that there are cases when slaughter and bloodshed appease God and violence is in accordance with his will.

Then, not resorting to violence when God says you should resort to it - is wrong. Sinful even.

Is my reasoning sound to you?

[/quote]

No, we’re talking about violence positive literature and in your case encouraging violence. OT doesn’t encourage teenage boys to go out and blow up their local market because it has infidels in it.[/quote]

The way I see it, both Koran and OT clearly say that sometimes God wants you to kill infidels.[/quote]

So, a write up of what happened (history) is the same thing as a commandment to kill someone?

[quote]
The difference is only that Muslims still take that stuff seriously. (If we took the OT seriously we would have to kill gays, all non-virgin single women, all who work on Saturdays etc.)[/quote]

Actually, I take it very seriously (if it honestly said that, I would follow it), but I take the whole bible into context, not proof text.

[quote]
If you honestly believed that say, Pope, is the infallible voice of God, and he told you that it is your duty to kill as many Muslims as you can, you’d assume that it is god’s will, and therefore, right and moral. And there are plenty of places in the Bible to lean on.[/quote]

Well, besides the fact that you misused the word infallible. No, I wouldn’t. I do have the ability to reason and I do understand the Just War doctrine.

65

I’ve been through Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia as a traveler. Spent 6 months traveling the spice road by myself.

I hate to break it to all of you, but there is more generosity, humbleness, peacefulness, and sense of community in those areas than the United States has seen in 100 years. Debate the semantics of thousand year old books all you want, unless you’ve been there none of you have a clue what an Islamic society is truly like. The typical Duhhh-merican watches FOXnews and reads the back of his Kraft dinner and assumes he knows what’s it’s actually like “over there”. Bullshit.

To this day the most spiritually enlightened people I’ve met are Sufis and Dervishes, they actually “walk the walk”. I’ve also been to Easter mass the Vatican, and it was no different than black Friday at Best Buy - crowded, pushy, mean-spirited, and hypocritical.

66

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

The way I see it, both Koran and OT clearly say that sometimes God wants you to kill infidels.[/quote]

So, a write up of what happened (history) is the same thing as a commandment to kill someone?

[quote]
The difference is only that Muslims still take that stuff seriously. (If we took the OT seriously we would have to kill gays, all non-virgin single women, all who work on Saturdays etc.)[/quote]

Actually, I take it very seriously (if it honestly said that, I would follow it), but I take the whole bible into context, not proof text.

[quote]
If you honestly believed that say, Pope, is the infallible voice of God, and he told you that it is your duty to kill as many Muslims as you can, you’d assume that it is god’s will, and therefore, right and moral. And there are plenty of places in the Bible to lean on.[/quote]

Well, besides the fact that you misused the word infallible. No, I wouldn’t. I do have the ability to reason and I do understand the Just War doctrine.[/quote]

  1. Smite the infidels - it is a commandment. They didn’t come up with the idea themselves, God told them to. They were acting out his will. So it’s not just a history account - it’s an insight into God’s will and his way of dealing with infidel nations. He condones genocide and killing women and children.

  2. Most Christians cherry-pick the good things. But the God doesn’t like things half-way, and you know it. If Bible is the word of God, every part of it is true and you should obey. Soo… wanna go out stone some gays? :wink:

  3. I think you missed my point. If you were 100 percent sure God is talking through him, how could you possibly deny what he said? To you, it would be denying God, aka going to hell.

67

[quote]twiceborn wrote:
I’ve been through Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia as a traveler. Spent 6 months traveling the spice road by myself.

I hate to break it to all of you, but there is more generosity, humbleness, peacefulness, and sense of community in those areas than the United States has seen in 100 years. Debate the semantics of thousand year old books all you want, unless you’ve been there none of you have a clue what an Islamic society is truly like. The typical Duhhh-merican watches FOXnews and reads the back of his Kraft dinner and assumes he knows what’s it’s actually like “over there”. Bullshit.

To this day the most spiritually enlightened people I’ve met are Sufis and Dervishes, they actually “walk the walk”. I’ve also been to Easter mass the Vatican, and it was no different than black Friday at Best Buy - crowded, pushy, mean-spirited, and hypocritical.

[/quote]

I’ll say it again…one cousin with his brains and DNA probably still in the cracks of the ground and four cousins torn up by car bomb. I’d rather people get pushy with me then try and blow me up. As well, the thousands of Catholic martyrs each year by the hands of Muslims (usually their own neighbors and family).

I understand, Muslims can be nice people, but Islam doesn’t call for it. I understand Catholics can be mean people, but Catholicism doesn’t call for it. I have found both Muslims and Catholics to be friendly, but I have only been threatened of having my head cut off because of committing blasphemy by one of those two.

You can venture to guess which one it was.

68

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

The way I see it, both Koran and OT clearly say that sometimes God wants you to kill infidels.[/quote]

So, a write up of what happened (history) is the same thing as a commandment to kill someone?

[quote]
The difference is only that Muslims still take that stuff seriously. (If we took the OT seriously we would have to kill gays, all non-virgin single women, all who work on Saturdays etc.)[/quote]

Actually, I take it very seriously (if it honestly said that, I would follow it), but I take the whole bible into context, not proof text.

[quote]
If you honestly believed that say, Pope, is the infallible voice of God, and he told you that it is your duty to kill as many Muslims as you can, you’d assume that it is god’s will, and therefore, right and moral. And there are plenty of places in the Bible to lean on.[/quote]

Well, besides the fact that you misused the word infallible. No, I wouldn’t. I do have the ability to reason and I do understand the Just War doctrine.[/quote]

  1. Smite the infidels - it is a commandment. They didn’t come up with the idea themselves, God told them to. They were acting out his will. So it’s not just a history account - it’s an insight into God’s will and his way of dealing with infidel nations. He condones genocide and killing women and children.[/quote]

Okay, well if you think a historical writing is proof that G-d commands us to kill infidels, please don’t pick up history book. And, please show me where G-d commands us to ‘kill infidels.’ I am serious, I am sure you know the Bible better than me. You have already showed you can complete my mere challenge.

[quote]
2. Most Christians cherry-pick the good things. But the God doesn’t like things half-way, and you know it. If Bible is the word of God, every part of it is true and you should obey. Soo… wanna go out stone some gays? ;)[/quote]

Who that is sinless cast the first stone. Charity is the greatest of all virtues.

I don’t cherry pick the good things. I just don’t proof text, in order to understand the Bible you have to take into account the whole of the Bible, the analogy of the faith, and Sacred Tradition.

But, G-d doesn’t talk through the Pope.

69

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Dude, are you seriously saying that the Old Testament doesn’t encourage violence and bloodshed?

Like when God says: Go and slaughter everybody including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so?

That’s not encouraging violence to you?[/quote]No, the Old Testament DOES NOT in any way encourage violence. GOD HIMSELF commanded exterminating conquest by force in circumstances where He saw fit to do so. There is no general advocacy for or encouragement of violence in even the Old Testament. In the now New Testament church age ANY and ALL violence alleged to be in the name of the God of the bible is a flat out lie as that theocratic earthly divine economy has been fulfilled into the heavenly kingdom of Christ Jesus by His own declaration and the universal teaching of the apostles. I guess I can hope that helps, but certainly doubt it does for some people.
[/quote]

And the violence in the quran is commanded by whom?

[/quote]

Either, the Devil (or his minions) or Prophet Mo himself.[/quote]

Mohammed say nothing in the Quran, he merely put to paper Gods message.

70

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I understand, Muslims can be nice people, but Islam doesn’t call for it. [/quote]

Pish posh.

71

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

But, G-d doesn’t talk through the Pope.[/quote]

It’s getting late in my time zone, so I’ll only reply to this for now:

I was talking hypothetically. You know that for many, many generations people believed that the Pope was the voice of God. If you born in one of them, just for discussion sake, you would have to obey everything he said, as a person of faith. Wars against the Infidels included. Otherwise, you would have to face the belief that you are going to hell.

You are knowledgeable enough not to believe that, because of blind luck of being born into a Western nation in this day and age.

Those poor bastards wearing towels are not. And that’s the difference IMO, not the holy book you use.

72

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Dude, are you seriously saying that the Old Testament doesn’t encourage violence and bloodshed?

Like when God says: Go and slaughter everybody including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so?

That’s not encouraging violence to you?[/quote]No, the Old Testament DOES NOT in any way encourage violence. GOD HIMSELF commanded exterminating conquest by force in circumstances where He saw fit to do so. There is no general advocacy for or encouragement of violence in even the Old Testament. In the now New Testament church age ANY and ALL violence alleged to be in the name of the God of the bible is a flat out lie as that theocratic earthly divine economy has been fulfilled into the heavenly kingdom of Christ Jesus by His own declaration and the universal teaching of the apostles. I guess I can hope that helps, but certainly doubt it does for some people.
[/quote]

And the violence in the quran is commanded by whom?

[/quote]

Either, the Devil (or his minions) or Prophet Mo himself.[/quote]

Mohammed say nothing in the Quran, he merely put to paper Gods message.

[/quote]

Yes, ‘through’ the Angel Gabriel. I think the prophet’s wife had it ironically correct when she basically said that Mo was a lucky man that whatever he wanted G-d commands him to do.

73

[quote]clip11 wrote:

Besides on a politically correct tv show, when was the last time a group of christians committed an act of terrorism? I remember a couple years ago a bombing or attempted bombing in New York happened. The media wanted it so bad to be a group of straight, white christian males to be the perpertrators. They act like they were all heart broken when it turned out to be the usual suspects.
[/quote]

I’ve already said that “I don’t think the average Christian Church is actually violent.”

That said, Christian nations don’t need terrorism, do they? Because they have armies and they can split the atom.

74

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

But, G-d doesn’t talk through the Pope.[/quote]

It’s getting late in my time zone, so I’ll only reply to this for now:

I was talking hypothetically. You know that for many, many generations people believed that the Pope was the voice of God.[/quote]

No they didn’t.

So far, the last two Popes, I have pretty much obeyed every command that has rolled off their tongues that I could complete. I don’t think nor do many other people that the Pope is the voice of G-d in the sense you’re using, the Pope is infallible, but that doesn’t mean if the Pope says jump, that means G-d said jump.

[quote]You are knowledgeable enough not to believe that, because of blind luck of being born into a Western nation in this day and age.

Those poor bastards wearing towels are not. And that’s the difference IMO, not the holy book you use.[/quote]

My cousin’s family was those poor bastards wearing towels (they are Coptics), and they didn’t believe that G-d commanded them to kill infidels.

75

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Dude, are you seriously saying that the Old Testament doesn’t encourage violence and bloodshed?

Like when God says: Go and slaughter everybody including babies in cradles, and feel no remorse, cause I said so?

That’s not encouraging violence to you?[/quote]No, the Old Testament DOES NOT in any way encourage violence. GOD HIMSELF commanded exterminating conquest by force in circumstances where He saw fit to do so. There is no general advocacy for or encouragement of violence in even the Old Testament. In the now New Testament church age ANY and ALL violence alleged to be in the name of the God of the bible is a flat out lie as that theocratic earthly divine economy has been fulfilled into the heavenly kingdom of Christ Jesus by His own declaration and the universal teaching of the apostles. I guess I can hope that helps, but certainly doubt it does for some people.
[/quote]

And the violence in the quran is commanded by whom?

[/quote]

Either, the Devil (or his minions) or Prophet Mo himself.[/quote]

Mohammed say nothing in the Quran, he merely put to paper Gods message.

[/quote]

Yes, ‘through’ the Angel Gabriel. I think the prophet’s wife had it ironically correct when she basically said that Mo was a lucky man that whatever he wanted G-d commands him to do.[/quote]

That was because the prophet was beloved by God.

76

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:

Besides on a politically correct tv show, when was the last time a group of christians committed an act of terrorism? I remember a couple years ago a bombing or attempted bombing in New York happened. The media wanted it so bad to be a group of straight, white christian males to be the perpertrators. They act like they were all heart broken when it turned out to be the usual suspects.
[/quote]

I’ve already said that “I don’t think the average Christian Church is actually violent.”

That said, Christian nations don’t need terrorism, do they? Because they have armies and they can split the atom.[/quote]

Don’t forget AC and ice boxes.

77

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< God commanded violence in His name. True or false? >>>[/quote]Absolutely true and despite what my dear friend Christopher might want to believe He did indeed command the wholesale slaughter of men, women, children AND animals even sometimes.[quote]MaliMedved wrote:If it’s true, then Old Testament says that there are cases when slaughter and bloodshed appease God and violence is in accordance with his will. >>>[/quote]God’s commands of conquest had nothing to do with appeasing Him. They had to do with punishing sin and cleansing the land for His chosen nation Israel. [quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Then, not resorting to violence when God says you should resort to it - is wrong. Sinful even. >>>[/quote]Yes and Saul found that out the hard way. [quote]MaliMedved wrote:<<< Is my reasoning sound to you? >>>[/quote]Pretty close except for the appeasement bit. Any want of conformity to the revealed will of the King of kings is sin. That is why violence perpetrated in the name of any god today is in fact sin.

78

I love how Christians can pick and choose what they believe from their holy book, but Muslims are banned from doing the same…

79

[quote]ssz28envy wrote:
I love how Christians can pick and choose what they believe from their holy book, but Muslims are banned from doing the same…
[/quote]

I love how someone that doesn’t know what the books say thinks that I am picking and choosing what I believe.

80

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
my dear friend Christopher might want to believe
[/quote]

I never said he didn’t, I said that just because he commanded it once to a certain people doesn’t mean that he commanded everyone to kill infidels forever.