Religion Catch All

[mnben87]

@squating_bear

While the Declaration of Independence is a religious text if you think about it

What?

[Sloth]

@mnben87

or not, as long as we can agree on a few things like wanting humans to keep on existing, and on something like happiness being important.

If we derive morals from the point of what I mentioned above (wanting survival and human happiness), we could derive an evolving moral code, that can adapt to new information.

What? We don’t agree on wanting humans to keep on existing. There’s no inherent obligation we exist at all. And how?

Humans exist in China, Venezuela, N. Korea.

Happiness? Whose?

[pat]

@mnben87

I guess I don’t care if something is inherit or objective. If we can value human happiness and survival, morality can evolve over time to maximize happiness and human survival. I think we have evolved to value these things.

It doesn’t really matter if you care. And evolution does not really explain it as objective moral good or evil does not coincide with evolutionary benefit. The fittest are not necessarily the kindest, most gentle among us nor is the fittest the evilest.
Evolution is simply the wrong tool to understand anything about morality. Like trying to use math to figure out the plot in Harry Potter.

[Sloth]

Evolution doesn’t care if the Nazis won and we all lived under their regime. People would exist and people would be happy.

[mnben87]

@Sloth

What? We don’t agree on wanting humans to keep on existing. There’s no inherent obligation we exist at all. And how?

I agree. But for the humans that want to exist and have good wellbeing, we can discuss setting up a moral code for the rest of us to follow.

@Sloth

Humans exist in China, Venezuela, N. Korea.

Happiness? Whose?

I am not claiming that this process that have been used in most countries have worked to make a happy population.

@pat

And evolution does not really explain it as objective moral good or evil does not coincide with evolutionary benefit.

Not claiming this. I don’t believe objective morals exist. I think evolution can explain how we have developed morality to exist in a social setting.

The ones who do anti social behavior are less likely to mate. Over time these thought traits slowly diminish.

@pat

Evolution is simply the wrong tool to understand anything about morality.

It is used to study morality. Studies on apes and comparing social behavior to less social animals occur.

[Sloth]

@mnben87

I agree. But for the humans that want to exist and have good wellbeing, we can discuss setting up a moral code for the rest of us to follow.

Ok. So long as you understand that is no more THE right way in any real sense. That it’s just as “right” to enforce a Sloth approved conservative theocracy.

Or worry only these things limited to fellows of same race, class, creed, or whatever you fancy.

[treco]

@Sloth

Whatever your favorite color is kind of argument at this point.

While l agree this thread is this ^^^, l put the spot about Hell in as an explanation of what the Bible says about why it was created. It is up to the reader (listener) to consider and respond, not the messenger. That is the essence of Free Will.

I admit as an evangelical, l feel a desire to tell the Gospel message of God offering a free ticket to an eternal banquet (accepting Jesus as that salvation). But l only bring that message, since it is God’s part to save those sincerely seeking him.

• these words are for the unbeliever

[chris_ottawa]

@pat

See this Jesse Owens quote:
“Hitler didn’t snub me—it was [FDR] who snubbed me. The president didn’t even send me a telegram.” ~Jesse Owens, quoted in Triumph , a book about the 1936 Olympics by Jeremy Schaap.

Interestingly, the Nazis didn’t actually have any strict anti-black policies as they did for other ethnic groups like Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs. There are stories of black people living in Germany during WW2, while they certainly weren’t welcomed with open arms there were some perceived advantages such as being exempt from the draft. From what I understand, the Nazis didn’t see black people as a threat in the same way they did other groups.

[Sloth]

@treco

@Sloth

Whatever your favorite color is kind of argument at this point.

While l agree this thread is this ^^^, l put the spot about Hell in as an explanation of what the Bible says about why it was created. It is up to the reader (listener) to consider and respond, not the messenger. That is the essence of Free Will.

I admit as an evangelical, l feel a desire to tell the Gospel message of God offering a free ticket to an eternal banquet (accepting Jesus as that salvation). But l only bring that message, since it is God’s part to save those sincerely seeking him.

• these words are for the unbeliever

These folks are literate people who have almost certainly heard enough of the Gospel. They have almost certainly made an informed rejection.

[treco]

Granted, but l pray for loved ones in my life that have certainly had decades of opportunity and message to convert while it is still day. And l wojld take any source that reached them.

[mnben87]

@Sloth

These folks are literate people who have almost certainly heard enough of the Gospel. They have almost certainly made an informed rejection.

I don’t buy that belief is a choice in most cases. In the case it is a choice, does the person really believe it?

@Sloth

Ok. So long as you understand that is no more THE right way in any real sense. That it’s just as “right” to enforce a Sloth approved conservative theocracy.

In the sense that human life doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things I agree with you.

In the sense, that I care what happens to me, it does matter. Most people have agreed that this matters (what happens to them).

[BrickHead]

There were very few blacks in Germany and if I have it correct, some and their white spouses were sterilized. There were some foreign blacks who fought for the Axis, but certainly weren’t invited to live with or mate with Germans.

[Sloth]

@mnben87

@Sloth

These folks are literate people who have almost certainly heard enough of the Gospel. They have almost certainly made an informed rejection.

I don’t buy that belief is a choice in most cases. In the case it is a choice, does the person really believe it?

@Sloth

Ok. So long as you understand that is no more THE right way in any real sense. That it’s just as “right” to enforce a Sloth approved conservative theocracy.

In the sense that human life doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things I agree with you.

In the sense, that I care what happens to me, it does matter. Most people have agreed that this matters (what happens to them).

Meh, I find myself attracted to predestination/sovereignty these days. Not sure if belief being a choice really matters to me.

Perhaps, but what happens to the people that aren’t me. Maybe there’s no real danger ignoring or even exploiting them. Especially if I make millions/billions in doing so. Or, at least, lose nothing.

[mnben87]

@Sloth

Meh, I find myself attracted to predestination

I think one can make a strong argument that the Bible implies predestination.

@Sloth

Perhaps, but what happens to the people that aren’t me.

I think this is why as society has evolved we are seeing more governments value equality. We don’t have too many instances of family rule, we see more democracy. Not that every country is equal, but perhaps even the worst countries are better than the best ones several thousand years ago.

[chris_ottawa]

@BrickHead

There were very few blacks in Germany and if I have it correct, some and their white spouses were sterilized. There were some foreign blacks who fought for the Axis, but certainly weren’t invited to live with or mate with Germans.

Yeah I’m not trying to be some sort of Nazi apologist, just pointing out that they weren’t targeted for extermination like others were.

[zecarlo]

@Sloth

It wouldn’t Inherently be wrong to deny them.

You don’t know that. Are we supposed to deny others the chance to sin? Think about it, If we take away the freedom to sin then following God is not a choice either.

[Sloth]

@mnben87

@Sloth

Meh, I find myself attracted to predestination

I think one can make a strong argument that the Bible implies predestination.

@Sloth

Perhaps, but what happens to the people that aren’t me.

I think this is why as society has evolved we are seeing more governments value equality. We don’t have too many instances of family rule, we see more democracy. Not that every country is equal, but perhaps even the worst countries are better than the best ones several thousand years ago.

Evolved? Equality is assumed to be a moral imperative? You make it sound like we’re moving to some objective ideal finally. Small chunk of history. We could “regress.” Or, perhaps we’re already regressing depending on what one values.

[mnben87]

@Sloth

Evolved? Equality is assumed to be a moral imperative?

Evolve just means change over time. Over time it seems that people have valued a system in which opportunity exists for a broader and broader population. Evolution can allow regression. I think there is a evolutionary line of development which involved going from water to land, and then back to water.

[Sloth]

Ok, gotcha. Just wanted to be clear no value judgements are associated with evolve. Sounds good.

[mnben87]

I personally think moving towards equality has been a good thing for the average. I am sure some think it is worse. Subjective on what is good or bad.