Religion Catch All

[mnben87]

@pat

It’s non-nonsensical violence and mayhem. What ever god they pray to, doesn’t forgive, doesn’t forget, keeps changing its mind, but if you don’t do as they say when they say it, they will kick your ass and burn down your business or house and publicly shame you.

This is probably what the Canaanites thought.

[mnben87]

@chris_ottawa

@mnben87

I think if you look at the list, China is preferable to many of the most religious countries.

Depends on what you value in life. Also a large proportion of Chinese people are basically slaves.

China is just one of those countries, and I agree with you about not wanting to live there. However, if we look at each list of 20 countries, the average outcome is better with the 20 least religious countries. We are not weighing population of China in this as it is one data point out of 20.

@chris_ottawa

But I also think that when people are poor and suffering, more of them tend to turn to religion.

I agree with this. Religion is correlated with poverty, crime, low education. It does not mean it is caused by it. Just correlated.

[pat]

Well, @Sloth and I happen to be Catholic, so if you have any questions feel free to ask. I’d say we’re both pretty well versed in the faith.

[pat]

@mnben87

which most religions are, they just get the privilege of not being labeled a cult once they reach a certain size

I don’t think cultism is a size thing, it’s a behavior thing. If you are not allowed to leave, not allowed to seek information out on your own, forced to comply by penalty of something really harsh, then you are a cult.

If you are free to come and go as you please and read or study anything you want and your main reason for being there is because you want to, then it’s a religion.

[zecarlo]

If it were anyone else, I would have been surprised that they could write that and not note the irony. But from pat, it’s normal.

[mnben87]

@pat

If you are not allowed to leave, not allowed to seek information out on your own, forced to comply by penalty of something really harsh, then you are a cult.

So you would argue that we don’t have cults in the US?

I did say “most” not “all”. The Christianity I grew up with discouraged seeking information. Leaving has caused me some distance with my parents which I consider to be a harsh outcome.

[chris_ottawa]

@mnben87

We are not weighing population of China in this as it is one data point out of 20.

It’s a huge data point, if you ignore that then you might as well ignore the number of countries as well.

[mnben87]

I am not suggesting we ignore it. I am saying it isn’t justified to weigh it’s results by population.

Like we wouldn’t discount Costa Rica’s high happiness score because of a low population. They are not less happy on average because of the total amount of them.

[chris_ottawa]

So what about the Vatican then? Why shouldn’t that count just as much as China?

[mnben87]

First it isn’t a country. Second it is obvious that the Vatican isn’t comprised of a typical population, nor is 800 people enough to count in a comparison to a country. Comparing Japan to China is a fair comparison when we look at religion and outcomes within populations.

Does Richard Branson’s island count? He is an atheist, so if we get to average things like wealth, his island is looking far better than the Vatican. How about Jonestown? Should that count. All very religious, very poor, uneducated, and with an incredibly high suicide rate…

[zecarlo]

Were any of its citizens asked?

[chris_ottawa]

It is an independent country. I’m using it as an example to illustrate why your argument that China’s population is irrelevant makes no sense.

Anyway, there is nothing more to discuss here.

[chris_ottawa]

@zecarlo

Were any of its citizens asked?

Evidently not

[chris_ottawa]

@mnben87

How about Jonestown? Should that count. All very religious, very poor, uneducated, and with an incredibly high suicide rate…

But they died happy

[pat]

@mnben87

happiness, life expectancy, personal freedom, and GDP/person

Define happiness? That’s an odd thing to measure. So is personal freedom. If you live in a homogeneous where most people tend to agree on everything then those people are more likely to feel personally free.
Throw a rock in the gears and see what happens.

It reminds me when Sweden was going through it’s refugee\ immigration crisis. At first they were, “Yay, diversity! Put them up and feed them.” Then they kept coming, and coming and all the sudden there were problems and people started drawing lines in the snow. People were arguing, the immigrants were starting to experience some dislike. Sweden had to reel in their open immigration policy because the country was starting to suffer.

@mnben87

This doesn’t defeat my point (that the most secular countries are better to live in than the most religious ones).

Secular in what way? Separation of church and state, or theocracy? I would agree with the latter being bad.
China, North Korea, and Cuba ain’t so hot.

@mnben87

one could argue that forced atheism with the combo of socialism is religion like.

One could, but one would be wrong. Being “forced” to adhere to the ideology does not make one an adherent. Same reason theocracies are bad.
For instance, we don’t really know how many Muslims their are in the world because in some countries denouncing it is a death penalty. Sure Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim, or is it? We cannot know.

@thefourthruffian

I think what would be interesting is to poll people within one of those countries, say Norway, ask similar questions, correcting for things going on in their lives (e.g., cancer, loss of work), importance of religion.

Misery is easier to measure than happiness. You can see misery.

@chris_ottawa

Of course poor African countries aren’t doing well, religion or not.

But they do have the fastest growth of Christianity in the world. Seconded, ironically by China.

@mnben87

Another proposition (one you didn’t make) from many religious folks is that a loss of religion leads to a down fall of society.

Well, look what’s happening here. These BLM riots and destruction ain’t happening by a bunch of Bible thumpers. It’s not reported on much, but many churches have been vandalized, parishioners terrorized, statues of Jesus beheaded and smashed, I am just waiting on the cross burning. Three churches have been burned down.
I would venture to say that these BLM terrorists could use a little Jesus in their lives. Maybe they wouldn’t hate everybody so much.

[mnben87]

@chris_ottawa

@mnben87

How about Jonestown? Should that count. All very religious, very poor, uneducated, and with an incredibly high suicide rate…

But they died happy

Debatable. Have you listened to the “Death Tape”. I think some of the suicides were unwilling. There is evidence of some refusing the flavor aide, and getting injections. There is evidence of them being pressured to drink the flavor aide, and many regretting it before dying.

[Sloth]

I’m late. Counting China or not?

Holy smokes this went off fast lol

[pat]

@mnben87

First it isn’t a country.

It very much is a country. You literally leave Italy when you enter Vatican City.
If you have a chance you should go. Religious or not, the place is impressive. I couldn’t even begin to venture a guess as to the value on the antiquities in Vatican City. It has to be in the trillions.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

But they died happy

They died terrified. There are recordings. Things were going great until someone noted that it was really Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid, they were drinking.

[chris_ottawa]

I was joking