Is this officially the longest thread in t-nation TRT history yet?
And I think that is just fine for most females.
I tend to agree. This can also be overcome by sizing down. Obviously you can go too far with this, and then you look completely ridiculous, but most guys tend to wear shirts that are too big. Though Iām 6ā2", I wear a medium and buy shirts that are āmuscle-fitā and ātall,ā so they fit on the torso but also show I have some chest/bi/tri development (even if Iām not huge).
I think that would make meā¦
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Just starting that summer cut early!
My provider is adding Deca to my protocol. Interested to see what results will be like. Iāve been cutting, but wondering if I should change that plan once I start Nandrolone. I understand itās typically used to add mass.
How did you sell them on that?
I just asked about it. Itās been noted to help guys with SHBG, which is me to a tee.
Itās a āwetā compound so itās possible itāll make you retain some level of water weight. At TRT doses I would think itāll be minimal. Will definitely help you retain mass while cutting or build muscle while bulking.
Be mindful of the possibility of āDeca-dickā. While itās likely only a very small portion of users actually experience it youāll not have any libido or erections for possibly years. Thereās been enough posts with folks getting it that I personally wouldnāt take the chance myself. Some people will try and say itās only possible at higher dosages but Iāve read several that got it on as little as 100mg/week. Some folks used it with no issues several times without issue and then one day BAM! The guys that get it are basically on the verge of suicide. Itās that bad. Iām not saying that to scare you Iām just making sure youāre aware incase you arenāt already. I could be mistaken but I believe @blshaw may have had it previously. Iām not sure to what extent but Iām sure he can comment.
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Well it is good at that. It has no place in a TRT regimen but is a solid anabolic steroid. So if you convince yourself, scripted or not, prepare to join the dark side. I was scripted Nandrolone from a prior clinic. I knew the risks and also knew that it being scripted was BS but I wanted to dabble. I was prescribe a little short of 200mg/wk. I donāt recall the exact amount but it was somewhere south of there. After 6/7 weeks my physique was awesome even at the Low dose. About the same time I was starting to experience a mind to penis disconnection. ED ensued and it was hit or miss for months. I eventually got better but also experienced weird mental issues at that time. Either way I feel Iām in the minority but there is a strong correlation and many anecdotes for my experience even on these forums.
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Damn, for years?! I havenāt heard that. Thatās insane! Really good to know. Some of the doctors I follow say Deca-dick isnāt realā¦
ā¦but I donāt buy it. Iāve read too many anecdotes to believe that. I think it just depends on the individual.
Iām in the same boat. Thanks for sharing your experience. Really good to hear. I was prescribed 100/week. Do you think thatās low enough, or should I lower it further?
I agree there is a correlation, though Iām not sure why some experience these side effects and others donāt.
Iāve struggled with this. I think Iām already kind of on the dark side, though, because my TRT dose is so high. Itās what I need to attain symptom resolution ā does that mean Iām on a cycle? Shrug.
I think we draw these natural/dark side dichotomies when all of us instead fall on a spectrum. Hereās how I see it:
The higher you push your TRT dose, the more you add things like Deca, the ādarkerā you get. Even those on the ādark sideā are on different positions of the spectrum. Some take 750 mg Test/week, while others take grams.
The key differentiator, I suppose, is whether something is going to impair your long-term health.
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To me, deca dick not being real is like people saying PFS isnāt real. It might not be common or understood yet, but thereās too many stories of both for me to believe they canāt happen
Are you going to end up in that boat at a relatively low dose of Deca? Probably not. But thereās still some risk there. Iāve considered taking it too just because my knees always hurt but just donāt want to risk anything like that after dealing with issues after taking finasteride for years
I havenāt looked into Finasteride but know a lot of guys on TRT use it and have issues. Is it mainly just used for hair loss?
I think if I run low-dose Deca (100 mg would be pretty low in comparison to my practically 300 T dose), and am vigilant about side effects, the risk is pretty low. Dr. Ruterbusch is bullish on it:
I may be talking out of my ass here, but I think that you are demonstrating where the lines can and should be considered.
You have to ask yourself one question. To what profit are you taking extra risks? To feed your ego? Do you plan to get on a stage someday? Where does it become (for you) a crossing point between trying to be all you can be in a healthy way, and being obsessed?
These are things things you have to ask yourself and youāll find that making decisions in things like āpushingā your TRT dose, and adding Deca MUCH easier and far more clear.
I personally think that your going to (and much more so as you progress in age) hit the point of negative returns brother. You wonāt add mass like you think you will, unless you get over the phobia you have for eating more. You have to get over your fear of adding a little fat. Itās going to happen if you want to get bigger. Youāve already demonstrated that you can cut fairly easily, so really, so what if you add 5 lbs of fat? If you do that at the behest of adding 5 lbs of muscle, and then reduce calories just enough to maintain that muscle and keep going, the fat is going to drop and you will retain the muscle.
Extra drugs arenāt going to do it for you brother. Youāre putting yourself at an unnecessary risk in my opinion (take that for whatever itās worth lol). Get over your fear from your childhood, push the weights, push the calories, and let it happen.
Case in point.
Very recently I decided to start pushing test dose following the whole āincrease it until your symptoms are non existentā mentality. I got to around 210mg/week (keeping each change for 8 weeks minimum) and STILL did not get rid of the one symptom I was trying to eliminate, which is an inability stay asleep for more than 5-6 hours at a time. I canāt sleep 8 hours in one shot to save my life!!
What I DID notice from pushing my dose though was an increase in hct, which caused minor palpitations and a slightly elevated BP. That was enough of a cause for concern for me to realize that I actually felt just fine at 150-165mg/week, except for the sleeping thing. Pushing the dose didnāt do anything for me except cause more problems, and never alleviated the one issue I needed it to, so I went back to my go to. Works just fine and I still feel great and have no problems (again other than the sleep thing).
I guess what Iām trying to say is that more is not better brother. Be careful of what you let yourself talk yourself into. And for GODS SAKE quit cutting your fucking calories!! Lol
Hereās a real world example of what Iām trying to get through to you calorically speaking (Brady-ism alert!)
This what Arnold looked like off season when he was trying to add mass. Then heād cut the fat back for competition purposes (on the left) and retain most of that added muscle.
Itās not a static thing brother and donāt be afraid to gain a little fat. Donāt go crazy with a full on ādirty bulkā, but donāt go to the other extreme of being fearful either.
I thought your T dose was 200 mg a week? 100 mg Deca and close to 300 mg of T? I am thinking that if you want to do this, you should just do a blast every once in a while, vs being on nearly 400 mg all the time.
Maybe do TRT at ~200 mg a week, and blast at 5-600 of just Test and eat like crazy once a year.
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Yeah, it is usually used for hair loss by lowering DHT. Fin was originally used for enlarged prostate but they found another side effect of lowering DHT is helping with male pattern baldness. It nukes your DHT levels by like 60% or so but in theory your body adjusts and increases T to compensate, so you end up feeling normal (some would disagree with this for good reason).
I was actually on a stronger version for a while called Dutasteride which nukes DHT by more like 95%+. My skin and hair were awesome though, haha. I actually didnāt have any issues for several years. Itās a long story. My libido went higher and higher while on it (like literally 3x a day level, which I had never been at before this) then crashed after that and thatās when all the TRT, etc. adventure started. It really pisses me off that I donāt have any sex hormone blood work from before during or after taking these. I think fin/dut are where my crazy high SHBG and low free T came from though. Iāve met a few other people on here with the same situation after taking fin/dut.
Anyways. Back to your cycle
Your point is fair about pushing the dose and weighing the pros/cons, for sure.
Hereās the thing: Iām feeling better than I was in the fall, and overall enjoyment of life/well-being has clearly improved. But libido still isnāt where I want it to be, nor where I think most guys would say it should be.
For example, I could tell my wife really wanted to go last night, and I just didnāt have any motivation. I basically moved her hand off my dick. Iāll get horny about 2 times a week now, which is an improvement, but Iād still think a healthy 28-year-old should be ready to go more often.
If Deca is a good solution for high-SHBG guys, as Ruterbusch suggests, itās worth consideration. Obviously, I am the definition of a high-SHBG guy. I donāt think trying this out at a low dose marks crossing over into āobsessionā territory. I do know what you mean about chasing a pipe dream, though. I recognize experimenting with these different things might never alleviate my libido issue. Wouldnāt you agree itās worth a shot if itās worked for guys like me in the past, though?
That photo of Arnold is a good illustration, but I wouldnāt say Iāve been too vigilant about calories. Obviously I donāt enjoy getting heavier, and putting on fat plays with my head, but I gained 20 lbs this fall/winter. I donāt see a need to get heavier than this before pulling it back, as I have been the past few weeks.
Iām prescribed 200 but, over the course of the past year, have been anywhere from 150-300. Right now Iām on the upper end, slightly above 250. You might be onto something, though I was hoping to find something more sustainable/consistent for the long run. Iād rather be the same person all year, not having highs/lows, you know what I mean?